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Shocked and appalled by the vicious negative reviews

I'm British and am both shocked and appalled by the vicious negative reviews that “The Krays: Dead Man Walking"”has received on the imdb.com, when the statistically the clear majority of the films negative criticisms are being written by British members and voters. Britain was once renowned for making popular films of the highest quality and beloved internationally. The reason why the British film industry is now the poor man to Hollywood films is simply because no one gets behind and supports British films and filmmakers. If we as a nation continue to attack and overly criticize lower budget British movies simply because they are mostly made on lower budgets, made up for with tremendous effort and sacrifice by their incredibly hard-working crews and casts who, are only trying their very best simply to develop and practice their art and talent, attempting to learn and move further in their careers, we will collectively kill off the struggling British film business completely.

Ignore the “User reviews" as clearly there seems to be a hate campaign going on, I suggest you instead take the time to read the three “External reviews" available on the imdb.com as they tell a very different story indeed. www.imdb.com/title/tt7858466/externalrev...

So many famous British studios have now closed down, so many British film producers have ceased producing movies, having become disheartened over the years from lack of support and the failure of successive governments to protect and nurture the British film industry, it has been weakened the British film industry to point of collapse, the best small companies struggling to find work are bought up and cherry picked by foreign companies, the British talent that there is sell their services to international production companies and studios because it is through them that they can make and earn a living. I am so very tired of reading nasty damaging reviews of British films, made by British independent production companies, that are invariably attacked and heavily criticized for having the audacity to make low budget films that do not have multi-million dollar budgets, when all they are trying to do is make films that are representative of their culture, for daring to tell stories that are stories about living in Britain and representing our culture to the rest of the world. Get behind British films, vote them highly for simply keeping the dream alive that Britain still is a film making nation, only then will they get the chance to improve, garner bigger budgets and take stories of our culture out around the world. To be clear I do not know Richard John Taylor the director or either of the film's producers Jonathan Sothcott & Richard Watts-Joyce, but cut them some slack please they are building a sustainable film production business and like all embryonic businesses with time and practice they will improve, who knows they may even help to reverse the present decline of the British film industry, maybe even eventually employ you and hat's off for them making the UK top ten DVD sales chart, when you look at the budgets of the films alongside them in that top ten. Kudos
Ray Brady UK indie film maker
www.imdb.com/name/nm0002916/

  • Oh dear Ray. You've probably got some valid points there but it comes out as a verbose rant. I haven't seen the movie and I wouldn't have thought it would have to go much to beat the earlier Kray film, but I don't think I have any wish to see it now. I'm guessing you're a Brexiteer.

    1 year ago
    • Not appreciated Allan. Your political comment was odd to say the least and not at all relevant to my post calling for, shooters to support directors and UK producers not shoot them down.

      1 year ago
    • Mac, do you have anything nice to say about anybody? What does sticking up for British films have to do with Brexit? If French people cheered on their team, are they for Frexit?

      1 year ago
    • @vasco de sousa thank you Vasco

      1 year ago
  • Ray, reviews are not for filmmakers, they are for fans. My favourite American comedies have suffered vicious reviews on both sides of the Atlantic.

    When I review films, it's so that people don't make me watch that kind of movie.

    Read the autobiography of Michael J Fox, his agent told him how to deal with vicious reviews. "It's none of your business what other people think of your movie."

    IMDB is not for the film industry either. It was built by and for academics. It makes it easier to find out what the name of Ed Wood's cinematographer was, and to determine whether their auteur theory is correct, and his collaborators made better films with other directors.

    I remember when the Adrenalini brothers (British cartoon) received vicious reviews, including one from an admitted wannabe British filmmaker who was sore the BBC didn't commission his stuff. I love Adrenalini brothers, especially the originals that were on the CBBC website.

    1 year ago
  • Sorry Ray, while I sympathise with your sentiments I do not agree entirely with the premise of your argument, and even less with the example you have used. I read some of the reviews of the film you mentioned, and to be honest, if the consensus is that the film sucks, then in all probability it does. However, to 'shoot the messengers' doesn't serve your argument well, as you seem to be saying that British films should be supported no matter how good or bad they are. I don't know, is that what you're saying?

    I think people, wherever they are, will gravitate to good films, and shoot you down in flames if you put out mediocre product. My personal problem with British filmmaking, for sometime, is that is too parochial and too safe. Yes, we do have some of the best technicians and craftsmen in the world, but if I see another Second World War epic I'll scream.

    Here's a test for you, how many of this years BAFTA contenders were British made films? Where is our Get Out, 3 Bill Boards or I Don't Feel at Home in This World Anymore? Sorry, my attitude to a system that has long proved itself to be too male, elitist and middle class is not one of pride, but one of simmering contempt, and the sooner the door is kicked off its hinges the better.

    1 year ago
    • The old analogy about ice berg tips refers to the limitations of the study of ice berg tips

      The British film industry is not unlike the British economy, where self qualified experts who may even have acquired an Oxbridge economics degree, pontificate about a subject where 90% of its actuality is hidden from their parochial presumption.

      With our economy the four centries old well practiced pirates of our pirate island don't allow any mere government or parochial pressure group to exercise any control over their trilliom dollar global empire, and they do it whilst hiding in plain sight

      Simarlilly the British film industry doesn't operate within a parochial national bubble either. British corporate pirate entities are massively involved in the English speaking film world. As yet, beyond the rarified world of art academia and the colossal but unexportable niche markets of India and China, they are not much comcerned with 'foreign language' business. British technical and artistic entities are disproportionately represented in just about every major production. It's only us British minnows who squabble over our domestic tidbits whilst the British moguls seek neither fame nor plaudits for themselves, it's a business that thrives best under the radar. Ice berg tip experts ought to look at what's under the water.

      1 year ago
  • I've not seen this film... But I'd argue until I'm blue in the face that bad/negative customer reviews are not killing off British film or the film industry...

    1 year ago
  • As a side note, at the local arts centre, many British films fill the seats. When I went to see The Queen, Darkest Hour, Loving Vincent, and I, Daniel Blake, the cinema was full. (I returned for Loving Vincent, pre-booked a ticket, full on a Tuesday.)

    Critics were perhaps kind to those films. But, I personally didn't check the reviews before deciding which to see, and a lot of other people didn't either.

    (Likewise, many films that have great critical response leave many empty seats.)

    If we look at the same genre (crime biopic of a recent individual) critics hated the John Gotti film. It had zero percent in Rotten Tomatoes.

    In general, I think British biopics are more rushed than they used to be.

    Still, when it comes to British historical films and adaptations, British (and American and sometimes even French) audiences seem to flock to them.

    I think there's great support for British films among a certain part of the audience. That audience, however, likes to see a different image of Britain than the Krays presents.

    1 year ago
  • Three Bill Boards is actually a British film made by Blueprint Pictures. Just thought I'd say.

    1 year ago
  • At least one of the names associated with producing that film has previously been featured on Bectu's 'Ask First' list - so whether they are genuinely part of 'building a sustainable film production business' is for debate.

    1 year ago
    • Well done Roland for detecting that "at least one of the names" associated with that film has fallen under Bectu's suspicion. Bectu's ask first is a caution that's often well founded but thier investigations are not always so. Thier agendas are not entirely perfect either. In any event, whether or not there's a dodgy individual involved ought not be relied upon as reason to discredit everyone. There's scurrilous examples of humanity to be found at every level; even amongst Bectu's members.

      1 year ago
  • I get the sentiment here Ray but I completely disagree that the audience should have to show support in any way for any industry. They’ve shown support for even bothering to watch it. That’s enough. Their opinion of it is there’s and they are completely entitled to it.

    Not only that but often the user reviews can be the most important and honest for the filmmakers to, as you say, grow and improve their talents. I know from experience as a critic AND filmmaker that many blogs/websites/critics will give positive reviews simply to get on the poster art, thereby promoting themselves. While I appreciated the positive reviews for my British movie The Ferryman, I’ve learned a lot more from the negative ones.

    On the subject of this particular film and the filmmakers involved, they make so many of these gangster films that get distribution without even trying to appeal to a large and specific audience in supermarkets, I really don’t think they’re struggling with support. If they were, we wouldn’t keep seeing Krays/Essex Boys/Hooligan films every single week at Asda.

    The British film industry will do fine as long as interesting filmmakers to collaborate with other interesting filmmakers to make interesting films with what they have to hand for the love of making films. And that goes with any film industry. As for international collaboration, if that’s not a positive thing I don’t know what is. There’s no hate campaigns, only opinion. And the general one on the latest film to cash in on The Krays is that it’s not very good. Oh well. Not the end of the world. The target audience will still watch it, and that’s all that matters.

    1 year ago
    • You missed my point, when I originaly posted the film in question had ten "user reviews" on the imdb.com. Nine of them rating the film one out of ten, the tenth rating being two out of ten on a film that only had, at the time, just over twenty ratings in total. I realised that the negative user reviews were therefore an orchestrated attack on the film and I wanted to bring that to the attention of the Shooting People community, now that more people have rated the film the audience ratings seem a lot less biased thankfully.

      1 year ago
    • I just can’t see an attack being orchestrated on any film Ray, never mind a low-budget British gangster film that, as I said, only it’s target audience and other indie filmmakers will even know about. I got a lot of 1 Star reviews for my film, and it was because I made a lot of mistakes, and people noticed them. That and just opinion in general. I guess I just don’t understand why you’re shocked and appalled by some reviews for this particular film, and why you think anyone would go out of their way to create a hate campaign against it? Can they not just really not like it? There’s probably 1000’s of films on IMDb with the same kind of reviews.

      1 year ago
  • Vasco and Ray in particular - I'm still awaiting an answer on the Brexit thingy. An elementary qualification in psychology would alert you to the associations of apparently unrelated attitudes. This was intended (not consciously) to annoy you even further. Worse still of course if you do have related qualifications. You obviously weren't paying attention in lectures. And the Brexit thingy? Er, sorry didn't quite catch that.

    When the whole Brexit thing arose I actually looked forward to considering the many and various arguments on both sides but I was mistaken. There appear none for Brexit. Or rather one. A sort of rabid xenophobia only vaguely stopping at 'bloody foreigners'. Sorry but it sounds a bit like you Ray getting all flag-waving about Brit films.

    It all reminds me of myself aged approx 10 standing in the school playground in my cub uniform waving a utility union jack. I said to my mate next to me similarly clad - 'why are we here then?' My mate answered 'well it's Empire day innit'. 'Er, what's that then?' 'I dunno do I'. And we both joined in singing 'Land of Hope and Glory'

    1 year ago
    • Wow Allan...simply wow!

      1 year ago
    • Allan,
      Thanks for the laugh.
      Okay, so the majority of voters in England and Wales backed Brexit. Therefore, there's a 52 percent chance that anyone on this list is among them. So?

      The Brexit vote was complex. Surprising enough, it's not all about supporting British films.

      But, then there's another possibility. Could some of the one star reviews be self-hating Brits who are turning against their own country because of Brexit? Probably not.

      You know those two Muppets who always comment on Kermit's, Fonzie's and Miss Piggy's actions. "It looks like the bacon just ran out?"
      www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6I_dKUYyI4...

      Enjoy.

      1 year ago
    • @vasco de sousa
      For the avoidance of doubt, the majority of those entitled to vote did not vote Leave. Although nearly 52% of the 69% who voted did vote Leave they only represent 37% of the eligible electorate. Not only that but since that referendum over two years ago one million mostly leavers have died and two million mostly remainers have reached voting age. The demographics and the arguments have swung the other way despite the dodgy polls and rhetoric. There will be another vote, to say such isn't democratic is manifestly preposterous. We won't be leaving.

      1 year ago
    • @John Lubran interesting perspective. Whatever the percentages, and however the non-voters would vote, it wasn't all about immigration, or films.

      1 year ago
    • @John Lubran
      How are Shooting People allowing sick comments like this on its board?

      "since that referendum over two years ago one million mostly leavers have died" John Lubran.

      John Lubran you are disgrace and from someone who has recently lost a father and 28 year old brother who both Voted Leave, I find your remarks reprehensible!

      1 year ago
    • @john bakerI'm sorry for your losses John but I find your umbrage to be misplaced and irrational. Nothing in my post disparages leave voters who've died. What my post asserts is that the demographics of our electorate has changed significantly since the 2016 referendum, which contrary to the stridentcy of some commentary, was very narrow and divisive. I also made the empirically unassailable observation that a further vote on the issue, in the light of previously unknown factors, can under no obfuscation of the meaning of the word, be confused as being undemocratic.

      1 year ago
    • @john baker You expect SP to censor plain statistics that have been in the public domain for yonks? Statistics which, of course, triggered subsequent outrage in the Express and the (pre-Dacre) Mail.

      1 year ago
    • @Alwyne Kennedy - correction: pre-Dacre should have read pre-Greig.

      1 year ago
  • I won't support a director becuse of thier heritage, or past achivelments, gender, colour or anything other than - did they make a good film in this case.

    1 year ago
  • As a filmmaker I supported Brexit because our industry and film culture is being overrun by low-budget Polish and Romanian films. They swamp our authentic British voices with their endless stream of inane action movies and humourless grossout romcoms. Their success is based on massive publicity budgets planned from huge studios based in the east European capitals. The fact that some UK money and talent is invested in them adds insult to injury.

    It's not bad audience reviews that perpetuate this hegemony. It is the lack of any coverage in the mainstream media for anything other than European trash and a few British films that pander to the same alien agenda. Thank goodness Brexit will at last stop this un-British cultural tsunami.

    1 year ago
    • There follows sarcasm...

      Never mind the detrimental effect on the car and aerospace industry. Never mind the loss of all the UK high-quality jobs related to the EU Medicines Agency having been moved from London. Never mind the inevitable food price inflation. Never mind the inevitable damage to the overall economy. Never mind the loss of however many City jobs and the concomitant loss of related tax revenues. Never mind the likelihood of food and medicine shortages. Never mind that Brexit pandered to, and bolstered, Steve Bannon's and Farage's dream of a dead EU, to be replaced with politically questionable nationalist states, with all the miseries that that might (surely would) bring. Never mind that no EEC / EU country ever went to war against another EEC / EU country - quite a thing on a previously warring continent. Never mind that autocratic and corrupt Putin is rubbing his hands in glee to see the EU weakened - all the better for his dream of "recovering" the Baltic states and re-establishing the influence of Moscow on the former Eastern European nations. Never mind placing the Good Friday Agreement in dire jeopardy, with a subsequent return to The Troubles, and / or NI voting to leave the UK and unite with the Republic of Ireland. Never mind the likelihood of Scotland voting for Independence following Brexit turmoil. Never mind all that - your pencil in the voting booth was moved only by thoughts of crap, low-budget films being made in Poland and Romania.

      1 year ago
    • @Alwyne Kennedy and possibly Mac too - I fear you failed to spot what I thought was obviously a sarcistic/satirical angly. Obviously we are not overrun by east European genre trash. Delete Poland and Romania, insert Amerika and Hollywood, to get the gist of my real point.

      Perhaps it wasn't a funny joke, but it certainly isn't when you have to explain it!

      1 year ago
    • It's a lot funnier now Glyn ;:))

      1 year ago
    • @Glyn Carter
      Oh, sorry, just seen your reveal. Yep, didn't realise you were pulling our legs. But when one has seen as many genuinely loony posts as I have elsewhere, then one expect things like yours to be real.

      12 months ago
  • A bit tough Alwyne but difficult to disagree. Well a tad 'generalistic' if you know what I mean. I imagined that a valid Brexit argument would take the form of - for instance - worry concerning bureaucratic interfernce in all sorts of things from Brussels. But in fact it seems to be more because Brussels are well, just that. You know, them. Over there. Bloody foreigners.

    1 year ago
  • Let’s return to The Krays- I suspect but it’s only a suspicion that The Krays is not well made and so therefore why should people vote that it’s good if it’s not, simply because it’s British. Secondly Jonathon Sothcott has an appalling reputation , being investigated by HMRC and the police for closing endless limited companies that run films and not paying a lot of people (actors and crew) The investigation is tAking ages and I could imagine that certain disgruntled people who have not been paid may further have hammered nails in his fantasy coffin. Giving a one star revue to make a point as they continue to wait for thousands owed them. “Well you would, wouldn’t you?” How irksome to see someone getting yet more funding for a crap film, pulling us all down while they are still unpaid.

    1 year ago
  • Hi Ray, I would say you can't worry about reviews on sites like IMDB. You do get people who are jealous, spiteful and create fake id's to do bad reviews, I know of people who do things like this, it's basically the same as trolling but in reviews on sites like IMDB, sometimes companies get people to do it as good reviews.

    Your point is also valid in the fact and unfortunately, most people who do watch films wont give thought into things like budgets. I expect your Kray's film had a 250k budget, as opposed to the original which most likely had millions, as did Legend (25m?). People don't know this and realize the difference it can make to a movie. We have to be tough and just let what will be will be and not let it or others upset you.

    As for brexit, I was a 50/50 either way and can see an argument on both sides and that's why we had a vote on this. Of course usually STRONG left wingers don't believe in referendums unless they win, in which case we supposedly have to keep on having the same referendum for them until they win and get their way!

    12 months ago
  • Just to echoe Roland's observation about the producer behind the film Ray is championing. Various articles online such as this one metro.co.uk/2016/05/23/carry-on-film-pro... and the fact they were on BECTU's "ask first" list suggests a track record of very poor treatment of the cast and crew of their "British Films". Not something I feel anyone in our industry should be supporting!!

    12 months ago
  • Hi Steve,
    Many thanks for that. Jane Sanger and Roland Heap had already managed to clarify to me the probable reasons for the review and vote attack on the imdb.com I did some searches and found some highly critical pieces online but didn't see the Metro piece that you mentioned. For the record, while I do champion British indie filmmaking as a whole I do not find these criticisms of the producer either laudable or acceptable, just very disappointing when it is so much easier, to be honest, and upfront when going into production so as not to disappoint at some later date. Reputations are earned and since the film business it is such a small one, burning bridges will always come back to haunt a wrongdoer eventually.
    www.imdb.com/name/nm0002916/

    12 months ago