ASK & DISCUSS INDEX

9 years, 9 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Like Scott says, just keep on shooting and shooting! Might be with befriending a rental house and asking if you can come in and test/play with a few bits of kit in return for... well whatever menial work they have that needs doing. Find out if you prefer an Alexa over an Epic, and why, and generally finding a way to surround yourself with kit and more experienced people!

9 years, 9 months ago - Scott Sandford

Hi Ben

I would say two things about getting an agent:

You have to have done something they can use to sell you to people you don't know...like a major award or well known/seen/successful (or have gone to NFTS). Otherwise, it's unlikely they can successfully get you work (and their fees).

The other is that they are unlikely to "get" you work - you have to get it and let them do the deal for you.

So, once you're getting work, they can really help keep you out if he middle of money issues, which is a bonus (for me, at least).

Once you've "made it" to a certain level, then that dynamic may change, as they can probably get doors opened for meetings that you couldn't on your own.

The other thing I'd like to mention is kit.

I have an "everything" kit option with a Red Epic - it's allowed me to make my work look to a cinematic quality, regardless of budget. But that requires a good crew to support you and also lots of work (by you) to master the equipment...but at least you have it to play with.

However, that's a very expensive option (which I chose instead of paying school fees :-)...otherwise, try to choose

9 years, 9 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

You'll get an agent easily enough if they can make money out of you, not so easily if you're not commercially viable yet.

But do you really NEED an agent? What do you think they'll do for you that you can't do yourself, or at least with a diary service? And be careful you don't put potential employers off - agents are a pain in the rear, and just get in the way of the process of a producer offering work to a crew member, something that works perfectly well without someone slicing 15% out of the deal. At the end of the day, for many people, it's a vanity thing, and can be counterproductive when production have the pick of the field to put an artificial barrier in the way.

9 years, 9 months ago - Benjamin Hodder

Hi Jamie,

Thank you greatly for taking the time to get back to me. I will follow your advice and look to get the higher end gigs off the ground myself until the time comes till I'm noticed; it's good to know where I'm needing to focus though. Would really like to get to a point like you. Great advice, thank you. Let me know if you need any help on projects in future. hodderfilms@gmail.com

Benjamin

9 years, 9 months ago - Jamie Kennerley

Paddy's right here. You can't provide the kind of service or guarantee with your own kit that a rental company can. That said, some of the nicest stuff I did in the last few years was unpaid/ low paid shorts, which I shot on my F55. However, once the companies rented in all the rest of the gear we needed they could have got an F55 for next to nothing anyway.

Even if you had a full Alexa, for those lower budget jobs you'd need lenses, accessories etc - the whole lot. otherwise you only have half the gear, and you're not saving the production that much.

When I sold my gear a few months back I was both happy and sad to see it go. Sad because I loved the camera, but happy that I was now free to shoot on whatever was best for the project, without needing to try to push my F55 onto it.

It's much more about the stuff you've shot and the relationships you make Ben. Focus on that, otherwise you're going to end up with the headache of needing to find 1K/2K a month to pay for your camera gear before you can even start to think about shooting creative stuff (or paying rent).

9 years, 9 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Lee, I can't answer for certain for you as it's a highly contended role and frankly it'll depend not just how good you are, but how available you are, plus how lucky you are.

I think the best way to increase your chances of getting lucky is to be always working, get yourself a ton of experience and showreel. Know camera department inside out. Load and clap, pull focus, point and frame, learn your lenses and lights, etc. Learn what the other departments are up to, too.

My particular axe to grind is aspirant DoP's who rely on folklore instead of fact, saying lens x is 'better' than lens y without being able to justify in which way it is better, if it's subjective or objective, if the way it is better is actually in the interests of the production or overkill, etc. Camera department can be very fetishistic, so be the person who doesn't treaty every production as a land-grab for resources to light your showreel, but work for the best interests of the production. Get your physics GCSE handbook out again and learn about light and lenses - shockingly, very few aspirant DoP's actually understand this stuff, how do you build a solid, honest career on something you don't understand? Make a pinole camera, experiment with multiple holes, bigger holes, how does it affect the image? This basic physics is the absolute underpinning of the discipline, know it and you don't need to rely on other people's war stories but can call bullshit when you hear it. Told you it was a bugbear.

Beyond that, be around a lot, get loads of IMDb credits, and make it easy for people you help out on a £300k feature to take you onto their £1M feature and beyond onto their £3M feature...

Just some thoughts. And get lucky, too! ;-)

9 years, 9 months ago - Jamie Kennerley

Hi Ben,

I wouldn't touch any of those cameras you list. Aside from the the GH4 (and at a push the Blackmagic) they're ropey builds using ropey parts, and with customer service to match. They're also not the kind of cameras that are a boost for you in terms of making you super attractive as a kit-owner. Seriously, don't get hung up on having your own kit. That said, if you really want to invest then do it, if you think it'll give you loads of practise opportunity, and the upper hand in creative job aps. Out of that list I guess it would be the Blackmagic, but don't forget you need a shit loads of accessories to make it useable as a normal camera, rather than just an image-capture box.

More generally, you need familiarity with larger cameras and the ability to work with them, create decent images and tell the director's story.

9 years, 9 months ago - Jamie Kennerley

Hi Benjamin,

It's tricky to get an agent, and almost impossible as an up-and-comer. You need a sustained track record in high-level shooting, be that commercials, drama, music promos. And even then, if you don't have enough then you won't get one. My advice at this stage would be to clean up your site so you only have cinematography work on it. Then you (and others) can see really how much DoP work you have under your belt and the level you're shooting at. I don't think you're at the level yet to get an agent, but without creating that distinction between your shooting work and your editing and directing work then it's tricky to be sure. An agent will take one look at your current site and close the page straight away...

If you need to still be doing your self-shooting kinda work, then you should have very different webs sites for the two, and don't let any agent or agent-style person see the other site. An agent wants to see that you're making a living ALREADY as a DoP, and if you're not they're not really going to be interested I'm afraid. To be honest you' don't need an agent, and when you're at the stage that you do need one, they'll come easy. You need to do all the legwork yourself - shooting shorts, doing test commercials, trying to get better and better quality gigs off your own back. That's the only way it happens really.

Good luck - and stay in touch,

Jamie

9 years, 9 months ago - Benjamin Hodder

Hey guys,

Thank you both again! It is really good know what I should aiming for as a result of getting kit, and now this is becoming clearer. It does seem as though although it isn't the solution ultimately, it could be beneficial to someone trying to build up their portfolio, in readiness for the higher end gigs. I just won’t expect to get on high budget features with it. Starting to get a better idea of a path now.

I will take a similar route as you then Jamie, thank you once again for the advice. I will concentrate on building the experience and then finally relationships with the companies It is a little hard to do that immediately as I am not based in London, so finding out (or getting involved with) short films or commercials is somewhat stunted, as I'm quite reliant on the web where relationships are hard to both forge and maintain.

In order to not be so financially restricted by something like the F55, but get some higher quality kit, I have narrowed it down to a few cameras around a similar bracket to do this, (GH4/Black Magic Ursa/AJA Cion) but I think the KineMini seems to be the best bet by far, as it can record 4K internally for just over 3000GBP.

Can anyone recommend this, or another camera, and do you think this would be a good move for someone in my shoes?

Best,
Ben

9 years, 9 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Hi Ben, there are certainly times when a DoP with kit can be attractive, but probably more for second camera/unit than first. Unless you have *all* the kit, having only some still means hires, but as the package is no longer so extensive, rates are worse, it gets limiting. Also, if a production is renting an Alexa and it has a problem, the rental company will swap it out in a couple of hours, but you may not be able to do so, which takes time away from production, which costs production so much more than any savings.

I'm sure some projects, especially shorts, will see an owner-operator as a good thing, but if a feature is spending six, seven, right figures, it's not going to swing it. I would seriously consider building a deeper relationship with a hire company and using that relationship to get productions discounts (nobody pays rate card). If you must buy kit, buy lenses as they'll still have value in 5 years, today's bodies will be old news by then.

9 years, 9 months ago - Lee Burnett

Interesting topic, especially Paddy's response.

What would your advice be on achieving work on bigger projects as a DoP? I understand that it takes hard work and it's a gradual process, but would the best bet be contacting production companies directly with a showreel?

Would getting AC work with bigger crews be a good approach to meet new people and potentially show some people my work, or would this just be a waste of time?

I'm thinking that just working on lower budget jobs where I can exercise some creative freedom and build up a showreel and expertise is the best option, but then when I think I have a somewhat half-decent showreel, what approach would you recommend?

9 years, 9 months ago - Scott Sandford

My previous response was sent mid post...not sure why...so here's the rest of what I was going to say :-)

However, that's a very expensive option (which I chose instead of paying school fees :-)...otherwise, try to choose a camera that will give you some images that you can use to put through a cinema workflow without degrading the image and get practice with post workflow. Something that will give you a Log image that allows your images to look great too would be my suggestion - and something that shoots 2K or so, ideally. An old Red One MX would be a good option if you can get one.

At least that way, if you get opportunities to shoot low-budget stuff, it won't be limited technically by the camera and your images will stand up to cinema/tv release and give you the option of grading them to a high standard for your showreel...whilst at the same time getting familiar with workflow issues that will be present on larger projects - and meeting collaborators in post production with whom you may work on future projects.

Also, it would be wise to find a good relationship with a rental house to get equipment cheaply.

All of that being said: just try to keep shooting the best films you can with the best people you can meet and develop your craft so you're ready for the break when it comes along...then the agents will come to you :-)

9 years, 9 months ago - Benjamin Hodder

Hi Guys,

Thank you both for the responses. It seems you should not hung up then on either equipment or getting an agent.

I agree with you Jamie on the cameras, it has always been my gut feeling that these low end cameras aren't what they seem. I think it would help someone like me, to get something like this so at least you aren't without. I would like to gain more experience on makes like the larger cameras too, that makes sense. Rather than spend 3k on a bad camera -spend it on renting the top three out and gain the experience shooting your films with them.

I think it's safe to say the best step for a director of photography after film school or collage is to continue to make shorts, and gain experience that will progress them to the next level.

It's a vague industry for up-and-comer's. I'm really grateful for all your support. Thanks again guys.

9 years, 9 months ago - Benjamin Hodder

Thanks for all the feedback, it seems to be down to luck, credentials good solid knowledge of your craft and being able to impress with a showreel. Though does having kit give an aspiring DoP the upper hand? Particularly in the lower end projects, (where you get to exercise some creative freedom) does having a particular camera, or possibly set of lenses mean you're more employable? For these lower pay gigs, if you're rate is only slightly greater than the dry hire, wouldn't it be more likely? There are several affordable digital cinema cameras out there, and directors seem to have an idea of what they want specifically these days, so could this be a waste of time? What seems to be the best camera to go for? Any thoughts on this?