ASK & DISCUSS INDEX

9 years, 9 months ago - Karel Bata

Yeah right. You need this tower just to capture the footage http://uploadvr.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Lytro_Immerge_Server-vr-camera-.jpg
add to that a fast computer for playing it back, monitor, etc

Might be OK for a studio set-up with a lot of dosh.

Fact is Lytro haven't even made a stills camera that works yet, let alone VR. They must have patient investors with deep pockets.

9 years, 9 months ago - Susi Arnott

Intrigued to think how you process (edit?) the resulting material, never mind how you re-present to an audience - and is this audience going to have to be individual viewers, one at a time in their own bubble world rather than sharing the experience of a story?
I remember arguments about pre-determined narratives vs. interactivity, back in the late 80s...
Saw 'Clouds over Sidra' 360-degree experience at Sheffield DocFest and appreciated it a lot - but hmmmmm! A new form, not The New Way to present an existing form?

9 years, 9 months ago - Marlom Tander

We were wanting the immersion. For the viewer to be able to explore.

The idea was that if we could get that then the movie would be like being in a studio theatre, but one where the viewer chose how to view - so you'd do everything as long takes and dispense with the language of wide and close etc.

Initially we thought it needed one camera to be moved around for multiple takes, but then we realised that it needed to be multiple cameras and one take, plus some serious (and possibly impossible at present) stitching together. By which time we knew we couldn't afford it anyway :-(

9 years, 9 months ago - Marlom Tander

Live action 360 VR filming doesn't seem to be really here yet.

I looked into this recently and it's all pretty much highly limited, highly experimental or highly expensive. Pick at least 2, usually 3.

For live filming you're pretty much stuck with stationary cameras capturing 360, which will be great for those WOW! Sistine Chapel, Grand Canyon, Etna erupting shoots where the viewer stays in their view point.

We basically stopped looking once we realised that you couldn't rig to allow the viewer freedom of movement they way they can in a CG VR game.

180 VR is probably closer to real world use, but we didn't explore that as didn't fit our plan.

9 years, 8 months ago - Karel Bata

I replied to that:

" "between 10 and 20 minutes,"? Hmm...

"As part of the Power to the Pixel conference a few weeks ago in London I had the chance to try out the latest fare on Samsung and Oculus Rift headsets. It was my first go at this, so I hadn't been acclimatized in any way. I didn't like the lo-res at first, but got used to it. I must have tried out ten, most were 360, and spent nearly two hours there - half an hour was on Turbulent's Oculus Rift 'The Unknown Photographer', which was fantastic.

"I felt no real nausea - no more than on a fairground ride - and was ready for more.

"That said there are no doubt poorly implemented VR experiences out there, but you can't fairly dismiss the whole field on the basis of those. Things will improve, and rapidly. But there will be, always are, folks who'll hate it."

9 years, 9 months ago - Claire Buckley

"You generating an income yet?"

Just like 3D, the next technical "innovation" to enthuse a supposed tech savvy audience which fell and technology conglomorates such as Sony rubbing their wounds.

New techology leads audience revenues? If you make it it will come - in both the tramsission and receiver channels. It didn't with 3D.

Surround Sound yes, because the technology had little to change for the viewer infrastructure - for the consumer it was relatively small dollar, and US Sports embraced it big time in content.

This and other first-person realities had plenty of time to "catch" with the video gaming industry, but there lies the canyon between it and the majority of the "real" world audience.

Gimmicks to capture revenue are often short-term - VR is the latest.

9 years, 9 months ago - Karel Bata

Thanks Mutiny. I'm still at a fact-finding stage, but will certainly be hiring something in a couple of months. ;-)

What software do we need with your rig? I was thinking of getting Skybox http://aescripts.com/skybox-studio/ My editor is FCP and AE, but he's not averse to something new if it makes sense.

"the actors would never do the exact same thing in 3 dimensions multiple times." Unless they stay still? LOL.
Hey, fake bullet-time in VR would be pretty cool...

9 years, 9 months ago - Alève Mine

Karel I've started a meetup group where we're exploring all that stuff, and I seem to be moving towards making a festival for all types of VR content. We'll see.

I wouldn't buy any equipment for that just yet. But then again I don't have any budget for that either.

Yes, as I mentioned when presenting at some recent VR hackdays: the kind of editing required for the kind of storytelling we do in "normal" movies is rather destabilizing / disturbing for the viewer in VR. It is already an issue in traditional 3D movies, and the more immersive the media, the worse it gets. You need more time to figure out where your attention should go. In 360 (3D or not), the cuts are often blended. We on SP tend to know that this is a dislocation in time for the viewer, and you don't want to edit a complete feature with only that. That would make for a dismembered story. It is a bit disappointing for me because I was aiming at making movies in this new territory with the same level of dynamics as traditional movies.

Susi, yes they are all in their bubbles, although there is some work towards multi-user (I don't have any links), in which case they nevertheless still are in their bubbles. But aren't we all anyway. An issue I'd like to see solved is the lack of peripheral view in goggles. Rather than creating of feeling of being in the middle of the action, it makes a 360 thing look like a film where the camera (you) doesn't know what to frame, or wants to frame everything in just because it can or to check if it missed anything else. Peripheral view may help but not solve this. Too much neck movement, too. When you wear one of these goggles and look up and down in the virtual space, to others it looks like you're checking your heighbour out without any restraint whatsoever. :)

Derek yes the definitions are still fuzzy. Someone needs to make a glossary. But somehow when people are looking for "stuff like this" they all search "vr", so is bound to be the keyword for now.

9 years, 9 months ago - Marlom Tander

The single take came when we realised "slap head moment" that the actors would never do the exact same thing in 3 dimensions multiple times. So you'd be trying to stitch together non matching material.

"dispense with the language of wide and close" - yes, exactly.

VR will have a very different language of story telling. Wide and Close exist in 2D film because they work. The camera is the POV.

But they don't exist in theatre. Theatre places the action on a stage (or even within the audience) and relies on other cues to tell people where to look and when. We considered that immersive VR would be much more like theatre, but with the added issue that the viewer is deciding where they are in the box.

This is an interesting discussion because it flags up that different types of VR will require different languages. Static viewer 180 VR would retain the wide/close thing to some degree, with static 360 it's def becoming iffy and once the viewer has POV control it's gone.

9 years, 9 months ago - Karel Bata

I share your disappointment Aléve. Like Marlom (if I understood him right) I was hoping for a more interactive environment - something you could move around in.

The inability to exploit virtually all the traditional film-making vocabulary is a HUGE drawback. With 3D you can still use selective focus, lighting, and all the usual editing tricks. You can't do that with VR.

You are spot-on about how being able to look everywhere makes people do just that! It's not what you might necessarily want. You seen the U2 VR video? It's terrible - you really don't know where to look.

And then there's this thing where with traditional cinema you're the 'invisible guest' (a term coined by Laura Mulvey) which works well when you're passively being led around by a skilled film-maker. But will it continue to work so well when we can actively select our viewing angle? Or even zoom in? Imagine a novel - where the language has lot in common with cinema. How successful would a story be that allowed you to pay attention (somehow) to stuff the author wasn't focusing on? It's that shared viewpoint with the 'author' that makes film and story narrative so compelling. Not sure it works so well with VR.

And I do think it's currently a bit like the fair's back in town, and everyone's saying, "Hey, check this out!" - like with 3D. But pretty soon they'll get bored and want something new.

That said, it's absolutely fantastic for immersive take-you-there stuff!

/rant ;-)

9 years, 9 months ago - NIGEL SPENCE

Dear Karel

If you want to hire a VR kit, I suggest that you call Louis Jebb on 07786 176 778: he's very knowledgeable and helpful, and has 2 kits for hire. Mention my name (Nigel Spence). Best wishes and good luck!

9 years, 9 months ago - Karel Bata

You generating an income yet?

9 years, 9 months ago - Alève Mine

VR is magic. It makes filmmaking disappear.

9 years, 9 months ago - Alève Mine

Marlom this seems to be someone growing his audience before launching a product.

9 years, 9 months ago - James Bayliss-Smith

This looks interesting, you can move around about 1 meter so more interactive

http://uploadvr.com/lytro-immerge-vr-light-field-video-camera/

9 years, 9 months ago - Mutiny Media

Hi guys - we use Autopano video / giga, software by Kolor. Our rig utilizes 6 Gopro hero 4 black cameras, in post you take each separate video file and throw it into autopano video, where you can stitch it.

This is for shooting monoscopic (a flat image pasted on a sphere effectively) you shoot at 4:3 2.7K, then that stitched together gives you a high resolution image which can be downscaled to 4K or 1080.

For the most part, people do shoot static, but there's no reason you can't do a moving shot using a steadicam / pole / easyrig etc. You do lose the full 360 sphere but you might not necessarily want a full 360 if you're recreating human movement (you could just have left / right, up / down etc)

You can download free trial versions of Kolor from their website, it's watermarked and you can only do 30 seconds of video a pop but it gives you a good idea of what it's about.

Cheers
mutiny

9 years, 8 months ago - Marlom Tander

I actually read the article as positive but wary.

The nausea thing is real. I had a go on a low res VR a while back and felt sick very quickly. Though friends were fine.

I'm hoping that a high quality experience would be better, and TBH I also get travel sick if I try reading in cars, so happy to consider myself sensitive in this regard.

That said, because VR is basically solo it's not as vulnerable to people for whom it doesn't work poisoning the well, the way 3D was.

3D - in cinemas, to which most people visit in groups/families. So if ONE person is like "can't wear the glasses over my glasses" or a couple say "not worth the extra" then that whole group goes to the 2D. That issue doesn't affect VR because it doesn't need everyone to be in a cinema, so the "no" people won't distract from the "yea!" crowd :-)

9 years, 9 months ago - Karel Bata

I've just been sent this link from the developer: http://dashwood3d.com/360vrtoolbox.php

It's an After Effects / Premiere plug-in. Tim Dashwood knows his stuff. The system requirements are quite specific! LOL.

Oh wow! - £800!

9 years, 9 months ago - Karel Bata

I'm struggling with how you edit this stuff myself! This is so like 3D was a few years ago.

"one at a time" yes, though you could organize a group event. But online/download is the future for this.

There's a page of stuff you can look at here http://www.vrdribble.com/allthingsvr/2015/7/22/the-best-virtual-reality-content-film
Teleportaled is the closest there to a narrative, but it is pretty lame. A bit like a fairground ride. There's a lot of talk about the evolution of a new storytelling language, but I've yet to see anything that makes me think that one is really emerging.

YouTube have just launched Stero3D support for VR http://uploadvr.com/youtube-adds-stereoscopic-3d-support-for-360o-videos/
Looks like that MA in Stereo3D will prove useful to me after all! LOL. ;-)

9 years, 9 months ago - Karel Bata

Now this is interesting: https://www.evivoo.com/

They're inviting VR producers to submit content for online broadcasting.

"Evivoo are taking online broadcasting of events and content viewing to another level! The Virtual Reality frontier has officially started on evivoo, with products and services available NOW: 360 degree capturing and editing, 3D reconstructing and VR headsets. The evivoo VR app will make experiencing VR events and content easy, sign up and join the VR revolution, find everything you need to get started right here!"

9 years, 9 months ago - Mutiny Media

We have the freedom 360 with 6 GoPro black cameras for hire.
http://mutinymedia.co.uk/product/gopro-freedom-360-explorer-360-video-rig-for-vr/

9 years, 9 months ago - Alève Mine

Karel it turns out I'm also working on those things you mention now, but even in the best case, if I manage to develop anything at all, it won't solve the editing issue.

I haven't seen the U2 video...

That would be a very long novel :)

9 years, 9 months ago - Karel Bata

Actually there's no reason why one day you couldn't do it with one camera in several takes. I used to painstakingly stitch several stills to create a panorama - now the iPhone does it in camera! But 360 cameras are on their way - check this out http://nofilmschool.com/2015/09/kodak-360-degree-action-cam-pixpro-sp360-gets-4k
Put two of those together back to back...

"dispense with the language of wide and close etc."
Editing? That's at the heart of film storytelling. Take that away... Worse, allow folks to look anywhere and you're going to have to have some pretty compelling content to keep them looking where you want.

9 years, 9 months ago - Karel Bata

U2 VR https://www.facebook.com/u2/videos/vb.5678046685/10154299145216686/?type=2&theater

9 years, 9 months ago - Derek Hunter

Are we talking about VR (which to me implies stereo) or 360 degree "panorama" type shooting? I'm currently working on "immersive experiences" for multiple people wearing Oculus Rift headsets. Stitching together stereo 360 degree footage has proved challenging and we're currently using computer generated environments instead. We also tried combining a CG stereo foreground with a 360 mono background but it just looked weird.
I might be interested in hiring that 360 degree rig though!

9 years, 9 months ago - Karel Bata

Live action 360 VR filming is definitely here! Where have you been Marlom? LOL.

Not sure why you're expecting game-level interactivity with prerecorded material. How would that work? Two different animals. They're getting closer, but it could be a decade before we see viable commercial product that does that well. Hell, to my knowledge no-one's done it at all yet!

Here's a few examples of compelling pre-recorded VR:
http://www.vrdribble.com/allthingsvr/2015/7/22/the-best-virtual-reality-content-film
And this is just what's currently available for free on YouTube. If you haven't got a headset go full-screen then click and drag.

The best CG VR I've yet seen is the Oculus Rift's The Unknown Photographer, which is released on Friday. http://unknownphotographer.nfb.ca/
It. Is. Awesome.
I saw it at the Power To The Pixel conference, which was a HUGE event chock full of producers/developers. http://www.powertothepixel.com/find-out-what-vr-means-for-creating-and-experiencing-content/

Personally I don't see it having much of a future for the kind of narrative storytelling we're used to - and I think too many people are talking out of their asses about that. Maybe that's what put you off? But there's so much else it can do.

For instance Fabulous wonderland will be a 360° installation linked to Damon Albarn and Moira Buffini’s new musical inspired by Lewis Carroll’s Alice in Wonderland to be staged at the National Theatre in a few weeks: http://www.powertothepixel.com/people/fabulous-wonder-land-national-theatre/
That's killer marketing.

Now, for us here, and just as an example, imagine creating behind-the-scenes VR footage to promote your film...

9 years, 8 months ago - Martin Jangaard

Karel,

I've got two of the HD Kodak 360 cameras at the moment -

http://www.kodakcamera.jkiltd.com/Europe/cameras/actioncamera/sp360.php

They're the yellow and black predecessors to the new 4K one (it's not released yet). I've had them a couple of weeks and have mounted them back to back and done some quick initial tests. I'm doing some more proper tests up at Harry's Bar in Newcastle this week, while we shoot some other regular promo stuff. I'll let you know how I get on and it'd be good to get in contact and collaborate.

Also, you might want to check out the new Theta S from Ricoh too, which is also about to be released (half the price of the two HD Kodaks that I've got!)-

https://theta360.com/uk/about/theta/s.html

P.S. Playing around with the trail versions of Kolor Autopano Giga and Video Player, but also about to download the Dashwood 360VR stuff for FCPX too (thanks for the link).

Best. Martin

9 years, 9 months ago - Zara Meerza

Hey Karl.

I've been filming on the hero360 making films for the cardboard. I own a hero360 rig + 6 go pro hero blacks that I rent out from time to time if you're interested. I'm also happy to do tutorials for anyone interested in learning how they work in a more hands on environment, just shoot me a message on here.

I also can't recommend the interactive classes put on by Crossover Labs/Sheffield docfest enough. Every few months they explore new programs in VR and every session I've been to has been a great practical learning experience.

9 years, 9 months ago - Marlom Tander

Interesting article on Wired today - http://www.wired.com/2015/11/360-video-isnt-virtual-reality/

9 years, 9 months ago - Rick van Valkenburg

New York Times released a VR short documentary and mailed subscribers the 3D googles to go with the smartphone app. It was shot in refugee centers in South Sudan, eastern Ukraine and a refugee settlement in Lebanon. very mobile. http://bizee.us/ittybitty/3