ASK & DISCUSS INDEX

10 years ago - Alève Mine

Paddy, could you please elaborate on "hedge, contract against it, or have them pay overages"? How to do those?

10 years, 1 month ago - Marlom Tander

You really want approach this from what you need to charge, which you work out based on what you need to do, esp as this is really a vanity project.

Unless you are wealthy and have nothing to do all day you can't do this in the hope that you might sell it. As to the price, that depends on the value of your film, not it's duration. A hagiography might be worth nothing, whilst unfettered access to the lives of women in ISIS territory might be worth a lot.

If the project runs into the sand you will have documented failure, and might well find that your subject pulls the plug in order to ensure that it never completes.

I'll assume you have the kit, but if not, add something for it, or decide the profit margins let you buy it. I don't think this is a project where hiring makes much sense. You don't need high end kit, so better to buy and bank.

Neither your nor the client know what will be involved, so I'd suggest simply saying :-

1) Lightweight days - e.g. one cameraperson and one sound, X per day. This is what we use for simple "following you" days, plus interviews to camera to get context. Extra if MUA etc needed to keep her looking polished.

2) Structured days - Y, per day, team needed. Will be needed for major set peices with multiple cameras, lights etc, but let's explore what you need and I'll flag up anything that needs this level of effort.

3) Editing at Z per day, and assume N days editing for each day of filming.

4) All travel and expenses to be found.

On it's own this looks like you're asking for a blank cheque, and maybe they'll say yes. What is more likely is that they realise this, don't want to give you one, so you sit down and work out what you will film and how much you need to charge for that. Then when she suddenly decides that "we must film me doing...." and it's out of spec, you can say "sure, so that's 5 lightweight days that we didn't plan on, so it will be an extra XX. If that's good for you, I'll sort it". And she can see instantly that those numbers make sense in the context of the project.

Good luck

10 years ago - Philip Carr

Broadcast quality camcorder at £300? Put me down for one. More like £3k plus!

10 years ago - Alève Mine

Paddy thanks

10 years ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Hi Philip - that's what the *client* thinks! Nontechnical people often assume that because their phone has '4K video mode' that it's the same as an Amira because the number '4k' is abused by marketeers.

Alève - sorry I was a bit unclear!
Hedge - you build enough contingency into your quote to cover all eventualities (ie inflate the quote to second-guess what the client really wants, not what they say/think they want)
Contract - get the terms really clear, down to the number of filming days, narrative, quality, music required, etc upfront and give a price for that. Heaps of work upfront which the client is probably going to whine about paying, and mean ZERO changes to the contract (they can't change their mind when they see the finished piece that they want a new font/different music/change of filming dates)
Overages - You will give a price for some contratced services eg x days filming etc., but the client can have some production creative control as long as they understand it costs more money each time they change their mind. If you have to redo the credits to change font to something that attracts a royalty, they pay for the font, for the work to update it, and for the transcoding etc.

Last one there, they get to be very involved and you both know they'll get the film they want (which may be very different from what you agreed upfront but at least they bore the cost, not you).

Hope that clarifies things a little. The 'All you can eat film buffet' only works for the clients, it's a poor deal for the production company.

10 years ago - Adeline Royal

Sorry for late reply, many, many thanks for your help.
Best,
Adeline

10 years, 1 month ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Impossible to answer! It could take a week, month or year, you might charge a creative fee, your costs and mine would be entirely different... And of course you probably don't have a blank cheque and the client will massively underestimate the time and work involved because camcorders are £300 in Curry's.

Here, instead, is how to start working it out...

How many days will it take you to plan, prep, film, edit, revise, revise, revise, score, mix and deliver? What do you need to charge per day to live on?
What hires/kit/services will you need and what will they cost?
Is there a specific aesthetic which will add cost/time?
Is there a lot of travel and hotels?

These figures will give you a basis of the absolute minimum that it will cost you to make (not the finished price).

Now, the narrative - 90 minutes is a HUGE expanse of time. Nobody will watch it unless you really make it engaging. You cannot simply cover some real time and hope for engagement - and I'm sure actual documentary makers can advise fat better than I can on this - but you still need a story, an arc, a heroes quest, jeopardy of some kind. This is what will inform the rest of the money side - it's your creative fee for being the person they asked to make the film as opposed to the next person.

Contingency and risk - it won't go to plan, events will move, people get ill, kit fails, and worst of all the client gets ideas and adds to the work. Whose problem is that? You either hedge, contract against it, or have them pay overages (better get that contract very clear!)

Finally, profit - you probably want some, so add it in.

Now you know the lowest possible amount you can charge for a specific interpretation of the loose concept 'a 90' documentary about xyz'.