ASK & DISCUSS INDEX

10 years, 8 months ago - Kays Alatrakchi

I have to concur with some of the above posts where "young" is code-word for "cheap." I don't think it has anything to do with age, and everything to do with budget, and the idea that the older one gets, the less he/she will be willing to work for little to no money.

So, as far as I'm concerned, if I saw an ad wanting a "young" something, I'd interpret that as a nice warning flag that they have no money and I better move along (and believe me, a great idea without the proper resources to realize it will not make a great film).

10 years, 7 months ago - David Graham Scott

You look pretty darn young to me in that portrait there! Just tell a little white lie about your real age and I'm sure you'll get away with it!! Hehe!! (seriously though, good luck with everything. I understand the issues all too well)

10 years, 7 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

That's a very good point, and your experience with the actor underlines that. I'm not sure whether the weak spot in that relationship though was age, or just sheer unprofessionalism. If the actor agreed to take a job, they should of course act responsibly and respectfully, no matter what the budget or crew ages. Almost all will, so that's a rotten experience.

I can also see what you're saying about more experienced crew - if inexperience manifests as faffing around, wasting time etc., an older hand might see it as a shoot going way over schedule and lose confidence in the director. Amateur/first time creatives can get lost in the jolly of seeing their words spoken by someone else and forget that the job has to get finished. No shot is worth risking the schedule for. A finished bad film beats an unfinished masterpiece because the director tried 40 takes off each setup! I can also understand why maybe a young director may be afraid of giving instructions to the older crew - when you're young, it feels wrong to boss 'grown ups' around, and whilst that decays over the years, there are often still strong vestiges of it into the twenties for sure.

I think the key to some of those scenarios is just plain preparation. If experience is lacking, make up for it with planning. For the experienced hand, it's just another day at work, no glamour, don't care about a DVD of the film, probably low pay - so they're keen to get wrapped and get gone. The thing they dread is a planned 12h day overrunning because of messing around. That horrible feeling of it being late, you've only had a bit of pizza 6 hours ago, you're tired, there's 2 major setups left pand packing up and the tube stops running at midnight... The way to mitigate that is planning. Plan each shot, storyboard if you don't already know the shots intimately, then divide the hours in the day (allowing for breaks, moves, etc) by the number of shots and be certain it's viable. If by the end of 2 hours you're not on or ahead of schedule, then switch to plan B and just cover the shots fast, drop unnecessary shots, etc until you're back on or ahead of schedule. If you make back enough time, you might even be able to get that one killer arty shot you cut earlier as a pick up! This will keep the energy high, people working, and most importantly the director appearing in control of the shoot. By and large, older crews will repay that professionalism with their own.

Great points you make though, and I'm sure it's worth discussing further.

10 years, 8 months ago - Kieron Clark

It's just a shame that posters limit themselves in that way though. To take an extreme example, let's imagine that Stephen Frears is sitting down to his morning cappuccino, skimming through the Shooting People bulletins, as I'm sure he does every day.

An advert for a director catches his eye. He reads the synopsis of the film. 'This is a good idea,' he thinks. 'This is a GREAT idea. I'd be willing to work for a couple of days for £200 and a tuna sandwich to make this happen!"

Then he reads the post properly. 'Young and funky director needed...' 'I'm pretty funky,' he thinks, 'but young... Hmmmm...'

And so Stephen Frears returns to his cappuccino and The Guardian crossword and the person who posted the ad misses out on having his input on their film.

Oh the humanity? Will somebody please think of the children?

10 years, 7 months ago - Nick Hilton

To offer a slightly different perspective:

As a comparatively young filmmaker, I have experienced times, in the past, where some of the older members of crew have lacked respect for my experience and not been very cooperatively. Not all, of course, a very small minority, but I can see why some filmmakers might fight it intimating.

For example, I had an actor, in his 40s, who came for a shoot day at my Mum's house (the home of indie filmmaking!) and he thought it was really funny to rummage through her drawers and under her bed. I know, for a fact, that he wouldn't dare do that with an older director, and it just said to me that, despite the fact that all the cast and crew are doing a good job on this shoot, you don't remotely respect me in this position of authority.

That said, I am, on the whole, not that bothered by it. But I do know other directors in their early 20s who look to have similarly aged crew in order to avoid situations where crew members can patronise with their experience. I understand it from the point of view of an older crew member too – young filmmakers are often naive, inexperienced or overly ambitious, and it can be frustrating to be employed in a position where you have to take instruction from people who have significantly less experience. And I think that is what some younger filmmakers fear.

10 years, 8 months ago - Mät King

Of course there is a social aspect to working, and some people may feel more comfortable working with someone younger or of a similar age. If someone were in a position of authority he or she may be troubled to tell an older, perhaps more experienced, colleague what to do.
There is an old Steptoe and Son (not quite giving away age as 4extra re-peats) episode when Harold is excluded from an around the world trip as his shipmates are younger.
And of course the younger you may be the stronger your back may be...
As opposed to the older you may be the thicker your skin may be...

10 years, 8 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren

Anyone who says that their funding is dependent upon a particular age group, sex or BME status on a film with less than $1m is pulling a fast one. I've produced projects up to $10M where that wasn't even the case!

Let's face it, they ask for 'young' because they mostly, but not always, lack the skills or experience and so are more likely to want to work for nothing - to help build those things. Us 'creakier' types, who have the skills and the knowledge and the credits, aren't so easily fooled to work for free on every project.

Seasons greetings back at ya Kieron and all others at Shooters :)

10 years, 8 months ago - Marlom Tander

It's actually a breach of law to have age suggestive terms in job requirements UNLESS it's for casting, and even then it should phrased "the character is 38", or in some way funding related.

Of course us old guard know that by "young" they usually mean "naive and cheap" :-)

10 years, 8 months ago - David Graham Scott

I've had quite a few fellows straight out of college contact me re my documentary work. They're often wanting to 'shadow' me as they put it.
Invariably they'll have pretty good tech skills but a real lack of ideas. With the type of documentary I do I really think age can be a bonus ie it helps you feel more empathy and understanding with your subject.

10 years, 8 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

The posts with 'young' are also often the ones not paying anything! I'm not sure I'd want a 'young' crew, having seen how much benefit experience brings to a shoot.

10 years, 8 months ago - Kieron Clark

For short films there is some funding that's restricted to certain age, sex or BME groups. Ideas Tap regularly have funding briefs for creatives aged 18-30, and there are Film London, Creative England and other schemes that are aimed specifically at women and BME people, with the aim of tackling under-representation in the industry.

That's absolutely fine of course. My point is that for films where there's no reason to need a 'young' producer or DOP the adjective is often included in the job post without much thought, as a synonym for 'energetic' or 'innovative'. Probably most people responding to low- or no-paid ads WILL be young, and trying to gain some credits/experience, but for an advertiser it makes no sense (or at least it would make no sense to me) to exclude any older, more experienced people who might be interested in being involved.

10 years, 7 months ago - Tony Oldham

Most Established directors don't appear to have lifted off until their early forties, and it was always good Hollywood practice to pair an established DoP with one of the Young Upcoming Directors especially on Debut features. DoP's and Directors just get better and more creative with age with most of the prolific partnerships between 60-70. Consider Scorcese as Director, or Roger Deakins as DoP. 72 & 65 respectively. And you will find few equal to their creative and technical abilities.

10 years, 8 months ago - Emily Swain

Oh my goodness me, I am so impressed you are having this healthy 'conversation'. Nobody likes to mention age, but there is often this red button unconsciously blinking in the background somewhere. Thinking the classic film 'Logan's Run'...
Well done on this chat all. I am a returning actor of 18 months but first came back onto the grid after 10 years completely away in 2010, going straight into working in theatre admin/production and then later directing.
I brought what I perceived as a really strong transferable skill set, including top notch communication/pr, languages, writing, event, team and people mgt skills. Could I get decent 'apprenticeship' opps as an older multi skilled, work-savvy creative candidate needing 'operational-specific' experience and opportunities to 'learn', even unpaid/low? That is what i needed and was i as keen as mustard? Gosh i was.
Although I was extremely grateful to have a couple of early good opps due to kind 'help' from contacts...I then hit a huge and very dispiriting wall, and it wasn't something that was overly obvious. But identifiable? Tt certainly was. Did I feel able to even mention it? - no, let alone grumble and it was almost too painful to do so anyway as it spells feeling marginalised or is somehow self deprecating...beat yourself up time...and that just upsets my dog - oh and ofcourse my husband.
It felt unfair as I had so worked my ticket - just elsewhere. The thing that was hardest is that noone can say at what time in your life you are 'called' to undertake new career paths or explore alternative avenues. And it can be when you are actually older. You feel you must answer and be true to yourself despite some big barriers - hidden or not... And wouldn't you think you could add something with your 'maturer' and often 'tested' head?
I was keen to understand operational mechanics, nuts and bolts as much as anyone. Always showing a willingness and teachable attitude...demonstrating even more hard core commitment at times.
Age will never be mentioned. Although an older apprentice can potentially bring a richer, diverse and steadier offer (cos they have actually now worked out what they want), they can't get past certain 'GO's'.
The nub of it too is that most employers and decision makers are so busy, so stretched and often budget constricted they can't see out of the box when it comes to hiring or giving placements. It can be a carbon copy template Match that gets the opp because its a thing known, familiar and works... I hate to say it but sometimes I used to wander about seeing what I thought were 'clones' - naughty I know. Ironic for such a 'creative' industry (and that's the bit that really frustrated me'.)
But in all fairness I can stand back and say I fear it's pressure, lack of time and willingness to conform without questioning in an all round vastly over-subscribed industry that is the challenge for hirers and barrier to the alternative older candidate.
Ultimately what is evidently perceived easiest and straight forward is the only real agenda on the table.

It is what it is & despite this conversation I am categorically not a grumpy old or bitter woman.

As things worked out, I unexpectedly got my appetite back to act (my formative career), after 14 years. Good call. Apart from the fact this is what i should very much be doing, in context of this discussion, as an actor 'candidate' I feel I know more what the initial entry point is.
Ie The casting age brief IS what it is (unless client changes it), your playing age and range IS what it is at the time (even though this will change as you age) and ultimately the camera never lies - Oh unless you have a ton of Mac on you, prosthetics and can persuade it otherwise... a high spec filter perhaps?

Now enough, I must apply my Olay and take off my face mask. I am looking forward to all my career has in store for this 40 something lovin it and bring it on 'spring chick.'
Emily x