ASK & DISCUSS INDEX

11 years, 1 month ago - Maria Ann Hylton MSc, MA.

All the above derogatory terms exist there is no denying that. As a playwright & screenwriter and using these terms is context dependent. Wrote & staged a political/social play set in the 1980's, South London 'No Irish, No Blacks, No Dogs' - those terms were used and common and had to be included. The N word is used in hip hop unashamedly. I'm from the stand point that those derogatory terms are offensive. And personally I don't keep company with those whether black/white/Indian/Spanish etc who believe its a cool way to greet me. Heard a debate on radio the other day and the female presenter said that everybody uses the N word. No, not everyone uses these derogatory terms. Were not all hip hop artists tossing out the N word. Everyone has a different view point and we shouldn't be collectively band under the same umbrella. My Mum, a Jamaican in her 70's who came to London in the 60's. She doesn't get why the N word is used so commonly. She is of the generation when that word was the most insultive thing you can say the a black person. Black on black or white to black whatever. Times have changed, but I still feel that's the most insultive thing you can say. That's my pennies worth.

11 years, 2 months ago - Daniel Cormack

It's a word I would challenge if someone used it conversationally in a perjorative way. Even older generations must understand it is now seen as offensive rather than just a description - which etymologically is what it was.

Of course, lots of words are offensive to lots of different people for lots of different reasons. I'm not a great believer in censorship, especially in fiction. Where will it end? Are we going to stop characters saying "bloody" because it offends Christians?

There is clearly a distinction between a character saying the word - perhaps because they are trying to be offensive or simply because it is a work of fiction set in a previous era when the word was used in the same way we would use the word "black" today - and someone using it in 'real life'.

To remove offensive words or characters from fiction because it might upset people is dangerous and disturbing and surely the enemy of art.

Taking offence seems to have turned into a whole industry in its own right which people use to advance their own political and selfish ends. Hence it is okay for Spike Lee to use the word 'nigger' in his films, but he takes offence at Quentin Tarantino putting it in the mouths of characters in his films.

It's obvious nonsense - a self-serving hypocrisy.

11 years, 2 months ago - Ava Charles

Franz, when you say that the N word was acceptable at the time of its recording, whom was it acceptable for? Perhaps it is not something that you are able to understand because you haven't been of the receiving end of its use, but believe me, having first hand experience of racial abuse growing up in London through the 80s and even as recently as last month, however sweetly it is uttered, I will never take this word to be complimentary. The meaning of many words have changed over time, but why would you want to find a reason to justify the casual utterance of a word that is now universally understood to be an abusive, derogatory slur and one that is related to enslaved of black people? There are countless explanations for the origin of this word and whatever your angle is, you'll be able to find one to create an argument to justify its meaning. The most important question is why do you wish to use it? A film that depicts the life of an African American man enslaved over a twelve year period is important in that it educates people and the historical accuracies of terminology are important to help people who perhaps don't understand the connotations of what they are saying and the contexts in which they are known to have been used. My Nigerian father would NEVER use this word to describe his nationality and I cannot imagine that anyone else in my family would either.

11 years, 1 month ago - Faisal Qureshi

If you really want to debate the merits of using certain racially insensitive terms may I suggest that you try some research?

Maybe go to Brixton and whilst shopping and drop it in conversation? If the person you're conversing with is visibly offended, then please explain your position why you feel justified in using it. Cite The Dambusters, 12 Years A Slave, the oeuvre of Quentin Tarantino, the lyrics of various rappers and maybe even this debate too.

A lot of people will debate the pro and con of your argument but I find nothing beats actual on the ground research.

11 years, 2 months ago - Allan (Mac) McKenna

My two pennorth for what it's worth. As a kid growing up in post-war Fulham (i.e. black people were very few and far between) landlords customarily used two paint colours in their houses (and we were all renting tenants in those days) - bottle-green and nigger-brown. They were popular with landlords because they were 'cheap' since no-one liked them. I grew up thinking that's what the 'n' word was - a sort of colour. But then swear words were verboten on the radio for instance. Even 'hell' was considered a bit strong. Now words like 'bollocks' (very strong in my day) and the 'f' word are used all the time. Very strange. Incidently my wife (a teacher) has discovered a new obscene four-letter word to go along with the 'f' and the 'c' words - the 'g' word: Gove. Oops sorry if that offends anyone.

11 years, 2 months ago - Jack Lancaster

There is rank hypocrisy = allowing HipHop Rap stars to spout the word N-1-G-G-A-H ad nauseam on their records, yet its use is 'banned' or disguised as a word that cannot even be written (n****r).

It is used in Hip Hop and in pornographic video fetish titles or in certain movies denouncing slavery in a historical drama. Most famously used in ROOTS the TV series.

My gym pumps out reams of music on the gym's sound system where every third word is N****r. I actually complained one day! I've asked three girlfriends of mine who are of Jamaican decent, what they thought of its use in hiphop music and each one had a different take on it.

The rock band U2 on the 1991-1993 Zoo TV tour had big screensfilled with images of a ... illustrated by words and slogans such as 'war, nigger, Japan, boom, baby, fish, and the word was not written n****r. Bono of U2 went on to say: Yeah, it's the Irish, we are the white niggers. books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=1444718746
and
books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=111850223X
and
books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=1933648716

I did an old play called the Little Foxes from 1939 and in it the word n****r is used by both the southern family and their staff ; one British actress of African decedent stormed out of rehearsals and quit about a week into it as she couldn't handle hearing the word. The director along with many cast members - was aghast, as was I. Would she have stormed off the award winning TV series ROOTS back in the 1980s?


Steve Coogan has been on a British talk show some 15 years ago - Parkinson I recall, and Coogan brilliantly imitated Ronnie cornet describing being "in a jungle surrounded by Gooks and I blew them away".

Larry David in curb your enthusiasm uses the word N****r in this famous episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Svfsiri50eM


Why aren't all racial epithets banned then? I suppose its hard to do and to enforce.

I am reminded of Orwell's 1984. PC thought orthodoxy is our "newspeak"- “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
The contradictory and hypocritical use of and fear of the curse word n****r amounts to 1984's “Doublethink": meaning the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one’s mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.” We mustn't utter it - even when describing stuff from years ago - but the latest record from this or that hiphopstar is studded with the word. Hypocrisy then to have fired that DJ - maybe simply give him some guidance?

Perhaps if its being used in context it is permissible as in the script of the BBC's hit show The Office - by Ricky Gervais and Stephen Merchant which contains this scene below which contains the reference to the pet dog "nigger".

Here's the BBC script that I copied from the Huffington Post's transcript

Gareth goes into David's office and starts crying.

David: Gareth... C'mon. You're a soldier, yeah? Stiff upper lip and all that! Spirit of the dam busters! Yeah? The squadron never dies, does it? Seen that film?
Gareth: [sniffling] Yeah... I got it on video.
David: And before he goes into battle, he's playin' with his dog!
Gareth: Nigger.
David: Yeah! [abruptly, to the camera] It's not offensive. It's the dog's name. And it was the 40s, before racism was bad.
Gareth: Yeah. The dog was called Nigger.
David: Don't keep saying it.
[Gareth keeps crying]
David: So... Take anything. Choose one thing. A memento, from me to you. Anything you want.
Gareth: ... I'll have the guitar. [Heh, David still has it in the corner of his office]
David: Not the guitar. I meant stationery or something I could re-order.
[Gareth settles for the hole punch, which David presents like he's generously handing over all his riches]

http://www.aoltv.com/2006/07/04/the-office-bbc-episode-6/

11 years, 2 months ago - Gary Stevens

I absolutely think the control measures of political correctness has gone through the window. Is it no wonder UKIP are gaining votes.First off the DJ who got fired for playing a record that was not officially "censored" was mis handled, however when will folk stop looking for "someone to blame" for other peoples wrongs. A recent debate about Cinema prices rising led into many stating that they do not go anymore to the cinema because of the bad behavior of others once inside. Why should this then be blamed on the Cinema operators? We seem to live in a culture now where if society is at fault its everyone else's fault other than those that who are doing it and this debate strikes similar parallels.

11 years, 2 months ago - Joe Conneely

I am old enough to remember when the word was in common usage and we had programmes like The Black & White Minstrels Show and Love Thy Neighbour on TV, so times have clearly moved on apace. But given the recent Tarantino film Django and McQueen's 12 years a Slave and usage of the word (plus as many have commented a lot of black rappers), attempts to wholly deny its usage when it is appropriate and not an insult and so be overly politically correct, seem self defeating. The rise of UKIP sadly reflects that it takes a very long time for attitudes to change?

11 years, 2 months ago - Allan (Mac) McKenna

Yid, Paki, nigger et al. They're all words that can give offence and if they do they should be avoided. But as has been said of course it depends on the context. If the 'offendee' is being 'unreasonable' (in our opinion) one can argue otherwise but emotions are often immune to logic and a 'civilised' response is in the domain of 'reasonableness'. But it can get complicated. I remember some decades back a young Scots lad 'in his cups' going berserk and punching people because someone mistakenly described him as a 'paddy'.

11 years, 2 months ago - Franz von Habsburg FBKS MSc

You're dead right, Richard. Rewriting the past is pure 1984 (read the book if you haven't already) where even back numbers of old newspapers and books were reprinted so old archives didn't even exist. The Dam Busters went out last night (NOT BBC!!) in the original form so I'm waiting to see what the media comment.

11 years, 2 months ago - Franz von Habsburg FBKS MSc

Precisely Marlom, which proves the common entomological root. It's not a BAD word; it's the insulting way in which it can be used. One could easily construct a sentence in which it is used affectionately or complimentary.

11 years, 2 months ago - Thabo Mhlatshwa

Just because hip hop artists use it, it doesn't make it right - And the songs where this word is used tend to be edited when played on Radio - Hence the Kanye West/Jay-Z becomes 'Paris' rather than 'N word in Paris'

I can understand why people would want to use the word if you are dealing with people who would use it in that context (slave owners for example), but I struggle to see why people would use a word that until very recent history (and let's be honest, even still in the present) was used to keep a race in their place. I struggle to see why anyone would have any other need to use the word.

It is a demeaning and disgusting word and if anyone fails to see that, then surely they fail to understand the power that someones words can have.

11 years, 2 months ago - Marlom Tander

Really? My Nigerian friends call themselves, er, Nigerians :-)

I always thought the etymology was from the Latin for black, via Spanish / Portuguese / French variations.

11 years, 1 month ago - Yen Rickeard

Along time ago, when it was fashionable in the upper classes to have a black page, (small boy rather than website) slavery was accepted. And, mostly, people looked down on slaves who by this time in England were mostly black (previously mostly white - see doomesday records). So the term/discription 'black' degenerated to insulting. Therefore polite people, who respected coloured people not all of whom were slaves, used 'negro', that being the scientific term for black. Negro was then polite and respectful. Any script set in this time would have to use Negro.
With time, and the increase of black slavery, especially in America, Negro degenerated into an insult, so black came in. There was a time in the 1960 1970s when black became insulting too, and 'coloured' came in.
I suppose in some dapple-shaded enlightened plantation in America's deep South, (there were such places, though never as dreamy as might be portrayed) 'Nigger' might have been a softened diminutive of Negro, and meant with loving kindness. If so they would have been an exception to the rule where it was always derogatory.
Until the last vestiges of racial prejudice die out (and Swedes don not make jokes about Norwegians, or Scots about English, etc etc) Nigger is never going to be acceptable.
But if you make an historical film set in the 1700, up to the 1960s, you would be setting the wrong tone to use 'black'.
Whether the audience would realise this is another matter.
(This response is only to deal with historic usage. Please don't blame me for the nastiness of the world)
Yen Rickeard.

11 years, 2 months ago - Franz von Habsburg FBKS MSc

Actually the N word is really the correct word for a native of Nigeria (as "English is to England") and unknown in South Africa (where my wife is from), where the insult word (from the Dutch/Boers) is Kaffir. There are three classes there: Black, White and Coloured (ie mixed race). Treated all differently. The local blacks still hold an annual event called the "Coon Carnival"!!! Work that one out!

11 years, 2 months ago - Kash Chaudhary

My response, through the medium of music.

P-A-K-I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxeXQ1ZOSoo

11 years, 2 months ago - Marlom Tander

As a writer I always get confused by people's problems with words. Words always need to be taken in context.

The manager who sacked the DJ should be sacked for being an idiot.

Right, time to play Oliver's Army - which the BBC showed, uncensored, on the Glastonbury 2013 coverage (according to wikipedia at least).

11 years, 1 month ago - Franz von Habsburg FBKS MSc

Can't let this continue without mentioning the beloved Alf Garnet who would have been a founder member of UKIP. A great example of 1984 today with rewriting back numbers is Agatha Christie's "Ten Little Niggers" which was then republished as "Ten Little Indians" and finally republished as "And Then There were None". Personally, I was brought up never to use any bad language, and still don't, which limits me to "Bother". Even "Blast" is a bit strong for me.

11 years, 2 months ago - Paul McLaughlin

That WWII film is often shown with the name of the dog (rather crudely) edited out. This is particularly glaring in the moment when news of the mission's success is relayed back to HQ as the dog's name is the code-word for success!

I've heard (though not seen) that there is a version that has been dubbed with an alternate name for the dog and also that a remake is in the works, with the dog's name changed.

Context should be everything in these cases but sadly often isn't.

11 years, 2 months ago - Richard Howard

Yes, context is everything. Taken to a logical conclusion, we will end up rewriting history if we start excising certain words from their original contexts because their meaning has changed. The whole concept of political correctness is a political tool to silence and scare people. When an Australian [can I use the word Australian?] calls an Englishman [can I say that?] a 'Pommey bastard' I don't hear anyone complaining. The whole concept of political correctness is a farce, which is excellently addressed in the film 'The Human Stain' ~ highly recommend. It's a device designed to divide people and silence them. And isn't that what those in authority do: Divide and rule? It's page one in the politicians' handbook. More fool us for taking it on board. It's a sad day if they really have changed the script of 'The Dam Busters'.

11 years, 2 months ago - David Graham Scott

I got hauled over the hot coals for using the word 'Jew' when describing a Jewish person.
The angry woman wasn't Jewish and said the word was derogatory. I didn't use the word in an offensive or antisemitic manner in the slightest. Just referred to some historical figure being a Jew and it was with some relevance to what I was talking about.
I asked some Jewish friends on Facebook if they were offended if someone called them a Jew and they all agreed that it wasn't offensive in the slightest unless screamed out in anger in their faces etc.
Totally ridiculous to have someone accuse you of being racist when you're obviously not. (I was talking about 19th century British PM Benjamin Disraeli being a Jew I recall....oh dear, I must be a total Nazi!!).
Personages of the Jewish faith are welcome to pull me up on this matter if they want!
DGS x

11 years, 2 months ago - Dayo Bash BALOGUN

I am Nigerian and I rarely call myself a nigger nor do any of my friends white or black refer to me as a nigger but if in the context of Addressing the use of nigger by black people... There's a certain rhythmic seduction to the word.(i.e in Hiphop music) If you speak in a sentence, and you have to say cat, companion, or friend, as opposed to nigger, then the rhythmic presentation is off. That rhythmic language is a form of historical memory for black people...

However in most cases when you hear a non black person (mostly white male) use the N word word, it's generally meaning to degrade the people considered to be of lower status, whether white or black...

On February 28, 2007, the New York City Council symbolically banned, with a formal resolution, the use of the word nigger.

11 years, 2 months ago - Franz von Habsburg FBKS MSc

Just to let you all know that The Dam Busters, complete with all the N words, is on Sky 5 tonight (26th May). Just been run over and being buried. N... was also one of the code words for the operation.

11 years, 1 month ago - Cathy Conneff

I don't understand why there is any need to use the word unless you have written a racist character.

It is offensive. It is not a word that needs to be used, why are people getting their knickers in a twist about not saying it? Do people get upset about not saying the C word in front of their mum? No. Is it that the word "sky" or "feet" has been declared offensive out of any sort or context? No.

Is it that a few white people are upset about not being able to use a word which may not have been offensive 400 years ago but certainly is now? Yes, yes it is.

I hope all of you who are offended by not being able to use the n word are wear doublet and hose or a perriwig whilst you're saying this.