ASK & DISCUSS INDEX

11 years, 4 months ago - Ben Rider

Ps. In the first paragraph you said I didn't make any complaints and then in the second paragraph you said I was the 'only' on to moan, which one is it?

11 years, 2 months ago - cath le couteur

Thanks to Chris Bairstow for an update on the situation here: http://variety.com/interstitial/?ref=http%3A%2F%2Fvariety.com%2F2014%2Ffilm%2Fnews%2Fmidnight-rider-lawsuit-accident-sarah-joness-family-files-wrongful-death-1201188246%2F

11 years, 5 months ago - ANDY LEWIS

Tragic. A lesson to us all. It's scary that, maybe - it's too early to say for sure, someone thought it was ok to put stuff on a railway line that still had traffic.
Perhaps all those silly risk assessment forms I filled in were a good idea after all. A question for every one on all film sets is who is responsible and are they insured?

11 years, 5 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Oh goodness what a horrible incident. Filming on live train tracks is an incredibly dangerous thing to do, I'm sure there will be some very serious implications for the location manager, upm, director and maybe 1ad.

Poor woman, it's very sad.

11 years, 5 months ago - Daniel Cormack

Too early to comment properly based on early unsourced press reports and when there will, no doubt, be a full investigation.

My initial reaction was that is almost inconceivable that anyone would be stupid enough to shoot on a line where the trains had not been suspended and the location made safe. Perhaps there is more to this than meets the eye. I wonder what role, if any, the filming liaison office for the trainline had?

11 years, 4 months ago - Antonio Ribeiro

Hi, I have to stand with Bill on this one. I was employed to work with the DP on the same shoot, and all I can say is that this Ben guy has no concept of working on a professional set and... I am sorry to say Ben, if you were a little decent you would not be defaming the reputation of someone who has been in this game probably before you were born. Specially when the work you were doing seemed to me completely sub-standard. And from what I have seen in your messages to Bill (sorry, but he showed them to me), to agree a fee and then to quadruple it saying basically 'you either caugh up or you won't see the tapes', is to me unethical, unscrupulous and damn right nasty.

Furthermore, I have worked with Bill on complex sets involving stunt work and I know health and safety is taken very seriously indeed. So I think on this occasion Ben, you are the joker.

11 years, 5 months ago - Bill Hayes

I used to scoff at the Risk Assesment forms too, but the one thing they do is make you consider everything you are about to do. The questions are a) what are you going to do. b) who is at risk should something go wrong c) how will you minimise that risk to avoid an accident?

11 years, 4 months ago - Nicky Akmal

Okay. this post is supposed to be about Safety not rates. There are many production that are low budget...with low rates that follow all safety for the cast & crew. When you are applying for a position that states. It's low budget - be prepared for the rates not to be high...and if you don't like it don't apply...you never come on to set not knowing what you are being paid. If you want high rates GO and get jobs on those sets.
It is really sad and it still upsets me that Sarah lost her life for a shoot, a shot etc...that should be the issue here. Not how much you got paid...that you had to carry equipment..etc

11 years, 4 months ago - Bill Hayes

In your original post you said you were there from 6am till 8pm. Now the times have changed to 06.30 to 7.30pm If you are going to slander people, you have to be consistant in your story.

None of the crew worked till 7.30 on either days becauser we were shooting daylight only, and sunset was aprox 17.00 on the 10th October - so what the hell were you shooting if we had all gone the pub?

"You yourself admitted earlier that you had a runner fall asleep at the wheel whilst working on one of your productions." Not my production, I was a crew member and I kicked up a fuss about it.

"Bottom line, I wouldn't be surprised if a crew member was injured or put at undue risk on one of your sets." That is a slanderous assumption to make on the basis of exactly no evidence whatso ever.

Well, I have been organising photographic and film shoots for a long, long time, I have done so in a dozen countries and all over the UK and not one injury has occured

You on the other hand, according to your profile, are a producer, director, script supervisor, writer and composer and yet you left Film school last year.

11 years, 4 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Eh? What have I got to do with this?

11 years, 4 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Oh I absolutely agree. Treat people badly and they damn well should rise up in opposition. I can't believe this pop promo was for a professional company.

I have mixed opinions on unions, I can't stand the abuses of power and frankly acting against members interests, but idiot producers like the ones who you describe are a great advert for unionisation. You did exactly the right thing - although frankly I'd have vanished on the first day if promises weren't being kept! Productions like that ruin it for the decent producers who care about cast and crew welfare.

11 years, 4 months ago - Ben Rider

Bill I was talking about your set. Rather ironic that you've forgotten my name, or that someone quit after the description I just read. Clearly it happens more often than I realised.
I'd recommend you start to practice what you preach.

Thanks Paddy.

11 years, 4 months ago - Ben Rider

Bill, after making my complaints after the first day, and then seeing you continue the same routine on the second day, I left because I knew nothing would change.

The only reason I replied to your post on here was because I really think that you need to buckled up your treatment of crew members and health and safety.
As I said, you should practice what you preach - especially when using these forum rooms as a space to discuss a loss in the industry.

I have to admit though, whilst I didn't set out to besmirch your name, I think you did it to yourself when you targeted Paddy instead of me. What a joker.

11 years, 4 months ago - Bill Hayes

I am terribly sorry, this was directed at Ben, I was a bit incensed taht I got your names mixed up.

11 years, 5 months ago - Bill Hayes

Thanks for the film link. I've watched about 20 mins of it - great! this sould have a wider audience.

Sleep wasn't a factor for Sarah Jones, it was the first shot of the first day. It was arrogance and stupidity that killed her.

11 years, 4 months ago - Bill Hayes

Look Ben, this discussion is about health and safety on set. When you camwe and joined the shoot I was running there was not a single health and Safety issue whatso ever. I am willing to supply the call sheet to any one who asks and they are free to call anyone on it and ask if they had any issue about the way I was running the shoot. They will also back me up in expressing being completely baffled by your strange behaviour.

You were with us for 4 hours on the first day and about 3 hours on the 2nd day. Both times you left without a word to anyone and then did all your moaning on the phone.

Incidently, none of the crew were paid below the minimum wage as you claimed - they were all paid the proper industry rate. You advertised your services at £100 per day and I offered you £120 a day. You didn't get paid because you walked off with the footage before the job was done.

Now please desist from writing these lies about me.

11 years, 4 months ago - Ben Rider

Talk about lying. I worked from 6:30AM on Thursday until 7:30PM on the first day, and after that, yes - I legged it on the second day when you continued the same routine.
I have the master tapes with time codes to prove it.

Send your call sheets to whomever you want, I never saw one when I worked with you.

It's sad to think that you're not willing to simply admit that you need to improve your sets. You yourself admitted earlier that you had a runner fall asleep at the wheel whilst working on one of your productions.
Bottom line, I wouldn't be surprised if a crew member was injured or put at undue risk on one of your sets.

Good luck Bill.

I won't reply from here on, as I feel I've finally had my chance to at least post something about my experiences on your production - after all, you aren't part of any association or professional body which I could report you to.

11 years, 3 months ago - Bill Hayes

I can't imagine ANY insurance company selling them a policy based on the previous events. I wonder if the authroities will let Dir: Miller set nup his video village in a prison cell.

11 years, 4 months ago - cath le couteur

Yes - lets keep the focus of this discussion on safety and the terrible loss of sarah. Thanks for highlighting Bill.

There's been a lot of recent activity on the facebook page following her memorial:
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah

11 years, 4 months ago - Bill Hayes

Ah Yes - Paddy. I had forgotten your name but I looked you up and you are the guy who agreed to do some "making of footage" for £120 per day (cash) for a two day music shoot last Autumn. 7am to 5pm You arrived at about 8am and by early afternoon you were gone. Not a word, no complaints, just gone.

I got you on the phone and you made some ridiculous claims that you were being over-worked and under paid. You were being paid what you asked. The whole shoot was a walking set-up between Piccadilly Circus, Leicester Square, Trafalgar Square and Westminsetr Bridge. You were the only member of the crew to moan about it. Lunch was late - yes, it was that kind of shoot and we were reliant on a capricious "star"

You then demanded £1000.00 per day to get access to the footage and to come back and shoot the next day. I agreed to pay you a sum that was less than the blackmail ransom demanded but more than opur original deal (I can't remember the excat sum). I was across town when you phoned me saying that you wanted paying min cash then and there - I couldn't get back to the shoot for an hour or more and then you did it again. You just left. You complained on the phone later that you hadn't been paid and then levelled all sorts of crap at me, including being a racist - all to justify you walking off the shoot for a second day. We never saw the footage. You never saw any money - what a complete waste.

The rest of the crew and I talked about you for days, because we just couldn't believe your unproffesional behaviour. So -if you want to besmirch my name then bring it on! - I've got a 7 or 8 people who will testify to to what really happened.

11 years, 5 months ago - Dan Selakovich

Unfortunately, films, both union and non-union, pull this kind of crap daily here in the U.S. Though it rarely results in death.

All of us in the industry here know at least one crew person that was seriously injured because of stupidity. More often than not, it's because shoots routinely shoot very long days. Some years ago, a DP friend ended up in the hospital after falling asleep on his drive home: six 18 hour days in a row will do that to a human.

Legendary DP, Haskel Wexler, made a doc about long shoot days after a friend was killed. You can watch it on Vimeo if you're interested. It's called "Who Needs Sleep?"

http://vimeo.com/63127085

I've seen no mention of it, but I'd be curious to know if this shoot was doing long days, besides the idiocy of shooting on a working rail line.

11 years, 5 months ago - Bill Hayes

It may have been a splitter day, but William Hurt was there along with artists' trailers, make woman (who also nearly got hit by the train plus a full camera crew and obviously props/art dept.

They applied for permission to do the shoot - it was denied and they went ahead anyway. Had they had permission there would have been a 4 to 6 man team from the railway company. Everyone would have HiVis and hard hats. None of that happened. Someone is going to be toast.

11 years, 5 months ago - Daniel Cormack

That's the point: when the shit hits the fan, everybody ducks. Some duck quicker than others.

Some, not directly connected to the events, even have a vested interst in putting more speculative shit into the fan.

11 years, 5 months ago - cath le couteur

Thanks for this Bill.

“I love this business, I want it safe, I want it prosperous, I want to be able to go on making small films for young filmmakers, big films for big filmmakers, but this is bad for us as a community. And that’s what we have to protect: our community, our family.” William Clarke - AD on Django Unchained

http://bit.ly/1bSz9yM

11 years, 3 months ago - cath le couteur

So they've started to go into pre-production again. Seems in pretty poor taste.

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2014/apr/16/midnight-rider-resume-filming-gregg-allman-randall-miller?CMP=twt_fd

11 years, 4 months ago - Ben Rider

Totally agree Bill. Health and safety needs to be tightened up within the industry. And film crew workers need to avoid said stupidity.

Heck, I once worked a project in London as a videographer for this music video shoot, and I was made to walk through London all day with my equipment from 6AM until 8PM without pay, no lunch or transport covered. The sets were picked at random, there was absolute chaos and a sheer lack of care for working conditions.

The person running the shoot lied repeatedly to the crew, who were all working below minimum wage, simply so the production could be kept afloat. Regardless of the fact that he was forever spouting racist and sexist remarks.

Needless to say I quit the following day when the same routine started, and was home for lunch. Kept the footage though, so they didn't get what they needed.
Film crew need to start standing up against these methods of production and refuse to tolerate less than acceptable working conditions. It is the only way forward.

11 years, 4 months ago - Bill Hayes

The seeds of the problem are sown here - where new companies are starting out on the road. So often I see postings for "runners with their own cars" Sounds innocent enough and it is, but there are implications.

A runner has an accident driving on a film his/her and the insurance company find out - they will NOT pay out because the private car is involved in a commercial activity. I am not talking about a dent or a broken tail light, I mean a runner falling asleep and hitting a pedestrian. I was on a low,low budget movie where a runner nodded off at traffic lights. He had one of the main actors on board.

A 12 hour day for the director / producer is NOT a 12 hour day for those doing the donkey work. 7am make-up call? That's possibly out of bed at 5am for the talent, plus the driver and the make up people.

Send a runner to pick up an actor at 6am and return them at 8, 9, 10 o'clock at night, day after day is recipe for dissaster. It is only luck that it doesn't strike. Did anyone see a producer or director nodding off on set? I don't think so.

I have worked a few times over the years with a producer (we met on SP)who make makes pretty mediocre films that seem to go to DVD very quickly. When he was starting out he cut lots of corners and people "mucked in" just get the film made. 7 or 8 years later his films are stilling being made in the same way. As soon as he reaches enough funding to rent the cameras and the actors off he goes, the crew eat crumbs for lunch and everyone is using their own cars for long hours. The bad habbits are carried forward.

What is it with movies? They can build a 287 tonne airliner with over 3 million components that can carry 400 people 3 miles above the ground, and fly around the earth. None of those people work 12 - 18 hours a day. So why do we?