ASK & DISCUSS INDEX

5 years, 5 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Pretty low £2k-3k delivered. It serves no actual value to the production, more for the director to navel gaze a few years later, I'd be more inclined to get top quality stills instead which will end up on all your marketing materials, DVD box, etc.

5 years, 5 months ago - Roland Denning

I should have made this clearer - I'm working on the BTS side rather than the feature side. I'm working with a colleague on a BTS for a major feature shoot - he knows the director personally, and we are in the process of negotiating with the production company for funding. Just wondered what a ball park figure would be...

5 years, 5 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

£2-3k still, I'd suggest, since the value to the production is still actually low. I mean try for whatever you think you can get/it's worth for you to take the gig, but the producer would rather spend that money elsewhere.

I'm a bit confused though - what is the actual budget? You mention UK BFI (£250k - £15M) and Major Feature (mid-high). Obviously you can ask for more if there's more in the budget, but £2M (capped) awards are very much rarer than the lower end. The £2-3k-ish suggestion would be for say £750k-1.25M actual cash budget, but obviously it's just a guide. Maybe your director friend can make a case to get you more cash.

If it's (say) £3k, I would suggest discussing picking a few key dates for EPK stuff - you don't really need 2 days at the same location. Also make sure to get the director/lead cast interviews between setups. Look at the DOODs for the cast availability. Be careful not to fall into the trap of shooting any action as a self-appointed second camera - that's what the unit is for!

5 years, 5 months ago - Roland Denning

Thanks - that ball-park figure is useful. 'Major' is an overstatement, but the director is very well known. My colleague is very keen to make the film as a documentary in its own right, I'm trying to balance that desire with some practical financial realities.

5 years, 5 months ago - John Lubran

Delivering a set of filmed sequences differs from producing a documentary, in that the latter, if it's to be commensurate with a fully creative narrative within an illustrated context (almost certainly requiring elements recorded beyond the narrow confines of what happened back stage) would require a great deal more investment than the former. They are two entirely different things. A £1,000 per completed minute is still the proper, respectful and sustainable rule of thumb benchmark for a broadcast quality documentary. It hasn't increased for nearly two decades and is therefore profoundly deflationary.

5 years, 5 months ago - Roland Denning

Thanks John - I am well aware of the difference and the fact it is a bit of a odd request (I recently directed a series of 15 short arts documentaries for an international broadcaster and I co-produced and co-edited a feature doc that is now on Netflix and iTunes. I have also shot dozens of docs and a feature length drama for TV so I do have some experience) .

It is all based around my colleague's relationship with the director, and helping to fund a personal project with some of the marketing budget of a feature. Which I know sounds a bit crazy but would make sense if you knew the people involved and the type of project. It is a fully crewed-up feature but not mainstream.

What I don't have any experience of is shooting a BTS for a feature or commissioning one. Thanks for your input.

5 years, 5 months ago - John Lubran

With your professional experience Roland you certainly don't need advice from me. However when we post questions and comments on SP we are communicating with a lot of people, many of whom won't have that experience, opportunity and knowledge.

It's very common that new entrants and those struggling to forge a sustainable career, and or enterprise, will undertake projects that might otherwise be 'loss leaders' deemed helpful to their career development. Ensuring that one has a realistic sense of perspective when working for little or nothing is particularly helpful in an industry that can be disproportionately exploitative.

The creative methodologies for making any sort of film rely on so many circumstantial variables as to make any approach unique. It might suggest the reason for the success or failure of projects, and indeed whole careers, not being wholly commensurate with the formal training and educational pathways, or lack thereof, trod by film makers ? As in the notion that great film makers are born rather than made ?

5 years, 5 months ago - Roland Denning

Hi John - Yes, I hear what you say, and I wasn't trying to pull rank, just to put my position into perspective. We are juggling a lot of things together in this project and I was trying best to prepare myself for negotiations with the producer. I wish I could tell you more about the project but things are all a bit delicate at this stage,

5 years, 5 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

I would be cautious thinking of this as making a documentary as the audiences are somewhat different - EPK audience is almost certainly only the director, but it may make a DVD filler (if you can get a physical release - everything streams these days). It has fairly low promotional value. This is why the producer will be reluctant to spend much money on it, as it doesn't earn its keep within the value system of the film, and has marginal external value. I've basically cut EPK out of feature budgets now as I'd rather get better catering for people at the fairly limited budgets we have!

5 years, 5 months ago - Roland Denning

I totally understand your points, Paddy, but this is a bit of an unusual situation. We are currently in negotiation with the producer, who seems initially very receptive to the idea. I should add that the director is highly acclaimed with international arthouse status (sorry, can't say who it is at the moment) so a profile of him and the way he works has a particular value as a stand alone doc - much more than it would with less celebrated director. It's also a doc we want to make even if, at worst, we only just cover our costs. And we have a long established relationship with the director. Hope that is beginning to make sense.

5 years, 5 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

That's super cool Roland. What I would suggest would be seeking money outside of the film finance, so you could do a proper job. I would do a deal with the production that they could have copies of the rushes and a 7 minute edit or whatever. Perhaps the producer can finance it separately. If the doc has enduring independent value, it needs independent finance to stand alone rather than belong "inside" the film SPV.

Very exciting, but totally feels like something to structure separately with nice clear boundaries so the film and doc are independent in scope, so you can do the doc justice with some context.

5 years, 5 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

PS obviously you'll work out what's right for you, etc., just trying to scatter some different ideas/viewpoints from a production PoV which will allow wider exploitation

5 years, 5 months ago - Roland Denning

Thanks for the thoughts, Paddy. We've already shot on a crew recce, and getting some great stuff. Yes, separating the EPK and the doc is something that definitely needs to be clarified, and we have mooted the idea that the feature's producers could be exec producers on our doc shoot. I'm hoping that they will agree that an extended, independent doc would also be of great use to them. But with Covid-19 looming, who know anything abut anything....

5 years, 5 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Indeed re this virus, it's causing a lot of chaos within the entertainment sector altogether!

5 years, 5 months ago - John Lubran

As old codgers we're already in as much lockdown as we can achieve. Gonna miss seeing my grandkids for a month or two.

There's a socio-economic-political existential crises riding on the back of this. Nothing like a punch on the nose to bring erroneous presumption to its senses.

Stay safe everyone

5 years, 5 months ago - Roland Denning

As suspected, shoot has been postponed due to Covid-19.

5 years, 5 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Sorry to hear it :( My whole year's work has vanished, this is landing hard :'-(