ASK & DISCUSS INDEX

3 years, 4 months ago - James McCann

Hi Lee,
This is one of the two sites I used (I can't remember the name of the other one right now), but I hope it helps you.
It's got pretty much every position and the going rates for said fee.
https://www.productionbase.co.uk/ratesofpay.aspx

3 years, 4 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

I like that site James, but everyone should be aware it may underestimate rates significantly. Runner £70/day is way under minimum wage, for instance! Minimum wage based on an 11+1 hour (11 hours work 1 hour unpaid lunch - although in reality you may need to pay 12h if you get runners to help with lunch!) is £104.50, and then when you consider for budgeting purposes you also need to consider holiday pay and national insurance, add ~25% so that's more like £130+ a day just for legal minimum pay (direct costs). If you add £20 per payroll cycle for wage slips and payroll processing, you can see that you may wish to revisit some of their figures for budgeting purposes.

Similarly, if you can find a decent Location Manager for £1k/week or Line Producer for the same, you either have a massive bargain or stand a good chance of being dropped when a "normal" rate job appears.

Just a heads up, really. Might be worth using that site to get the *proportions* about right, but then multiply throughout by a factor (double?) to get the approximate real budgeted costs with "fringes" (payroll taxes/holiday pay, that kind of overhead).

3 years, 4 months ago - Marlom Tander

I have a lull...

But really it's quite simple. IF you really have a grasp of how you will shoot the film. As a writer, you have a mental image. Go with it. If you are Director, you should have this nailed :-)

Make a list of all the resources that you need for most/all of the filming. Crew, normal kit, core cast.

For people, work out for each how much you need to pay them. If you have to provide accom, how many nights in a suitable hotel.

Remember to feed and water properly on set. You really want it brought to you, not have people go hunting for meal deals which wastes time, and also, isn't filling enough to keep people fueled after 5pm...

For each scene, work out how many days it will take, (but never less than 1/2 a day, because life's like that).

This then gives you a decent "people and kit" number.

Next - develop a timeline for your script. Use this to work out what clothes your characters wear in each scene. From this, derive total costumes/clothes. Do any scenes involve getting clothes wet/muddy? Then you need 2,3-5 duplicates for multiple takes.

Personal view, NEVER expect people to wear their own clothes. Clothes help define character and if there is a clothes character mismatch, it spoils the film. For budgeting purposes, assume that all the cast have the wrong taste for the film.

Use the same timeline to work out location needs, set building and props.

Costs? The sheet will be full of "educated guesses", but that's fine at this stage. The main thing is that the numbers don't look unreasonably hopeful. No, you can't assume you'll feed and water people for £5 per person per day. Not unless you have an actually properly costed quote...

AVOID being optimistic re how fast you can shoot. 2 weeks is way cheaper than 3, but, really? REALLY? Running out of time can result in a total loss.

I see you've done a lot of shorts already. It's really no different. Just more cells and many fewer "no charge because favour" ones :-(

I really need to build a sheet that people can use. But I haven't yet. Message me if you like.

3 years, 4 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Some great tips from Marlom. Just some flourishes on a couple of his notes...

Set catering isn't for the benefit of the staff, it's for the benefit of the production. Staff will go AWOL to find food, and catering reduces the risk of them wandering off. It needs to be good enough to make it the better option. You can't do pizza more than twice in a week.

The tip about half-a-day is important. You might shoot different scenes at the location in the opposite direction, or a couple of doors away, but every unit move soaks up hours and hours, and time is the biggest expense. 3h to pack up, load cars, drive, park, carry kit, unpack, set up is 3h you're not on camera, and you'll regret that.

Costume/wardrobe tips, fully agreed and clearly written from experience.

You can shoot a feature in 3 hard weeks, we've even shot on in two, but those two weeks included a heap of cast-operated "found footage" which was faster to shoot. You can do 12h days, but don't go over and always try to finish early. Over 10h you're into rapidly diminishing returns as prople get tired. Most of the crew won't have the drive you have as a creative/director, they're doing thier day jobs, and after your shoot they have another next week, so they don't want to do 16h days and miss thier families and go ont the next job broken.

"Educated guesses" is perfectly expressed. Not just guesses but ones based on research. £5pppd for catering isn't even close as Marlom notes, for instance. I would suggest the first pass of the budget you do at full market rates, the number will terrify you, then you can look at how you're going to do deals and where to focus on your optimisations. Allow for a slush fund, sometimes problems can only be solved with cash (camera sensor goes bad and you have to get a new one at no notice - cash. Dickhead decides to strim their lawn loudly every time you roll sound because he can see you're filming and blocked his parking space - cash will shut him up).

3 years, 4 months ago - James McCann

So if Lee is after going rates/fees, giving him an actual list with job title and numbers next to it might of help is anyone can post the actual rates.....

3 years, 4 months ago - Marlom Tander

If you want the Full Fat rates (always a good place to start) https://bectu.org.uk/get-involved/ratecards/ also Equity.

Obviously small productions can't pay at scale, but when you get people for less, you owe them one once you finish, and if the gap is large and the person is good, you also know to have a plan B and C person in your back pocket because person A really can't turn down a Full Fat job if one turns up.

3 years, 4 months ago - Vasco de Sousa

Based on your pitch elsewhere, I would say 5 million Euros in France or Germany, a similar amount in the UK (maybe five million pounds), at least ten million dollars in the US, but it might be doable for a lot less in Ireland, Mexico, Easter Europe or North Africa. That is without any a-listers, of course.

(In Portugal and Romania, you can easily find english speaking crew members. Probably in Turkey too.)

Of course, this depends on shooting style and who else you get involved. And of course, distribution plans. If you are planning on shooting it without a presale, it will be a greater risk.

I advise coming up with a shooting schedule first. A good lead investor can sometimes help determine the budget with you, if you know what you are going to do. (Some experienced producers can skim through a script at come up with a good estimate in less than an hour.)

Remember, guilds change their rates, so you need a budget to be flexible. But you can buy rate cards for most English speaking countries for relatively cheap (which can save time because they are already in excel format.). Gorilla has a rate card spreadsheet that I found much more helpful than their budgeting software.

3 years, 4 months ago - Franz von Habsburg FBKS MSc

Hi. Using Final Draft I export it into Movie Magic Budgeting. It’s the only way I know… it’s a long slog…

3 years, 4 months ago - Lee Hutchings

Hello everyone.

Apologies for not getting back to you sooner; I promise I haven't been ignoring you!

Thank you so very much for all of your replies. However, I can not lie and say that I've read through them carefully. So I'll spend this week doing so.

In the meantime, thanks again for your help - and have a great (filmmaking) weekend.

Best wishes,

Lee :)

3 years, 4 months ago - Marlom Tander

I have now made a simple draft budgeting spreadsheet. Anyone who wants it, message me.