ASK & DISCUSS INDEX

10 years, 7 months ago - Lucas Jedrzejak

Well said Paddy. You've raised an interesting point Sir! I'm one of the older guys who used to use ENG cams with tape in it, mainly DSR570s or later HDW750 which 10 years ago was still a big wow factor. Today, 2 of my ENG cams (HDV, tape based) collecting significant amount of dust and the specs are not that good for broadcast anymore, also 2 DSLRs, rather useless for docs sitting on the same shelf.. I am afraid we are becoming a society of big consumers that manufacturers are laughing at, mainly, because its very likely, the broadcasting bodies will change their mind once more in few years for everybody to shoot 4K and no other. Prospect of hiring is very appealing, however sometimes logistically could be tricky to get it last minute. I think we all like to hold on to something, even if its out of date, to have own settings, familiarity and confidence with it, though again, it could be just me, finding it still difficult to switch from vinyl to virtual streaming. I think rental may be the way forward but I am checking regularly TVbay too ;)

10 years, 7 months ago - Nigel Rogers

@Alève Mine if post production processing is an issue then data storage will be also. Both have costly solutions that require higher budget projects. Proxy files have been around a while but the final render can tie a computer up for days.

10 years, 7 months ago - Nick Hilton

Bought a C100 + Atomos Ninja Star for relatively good value (this was also pre-MKII announcement, but was buying on behalf of a company so I cry less about it...) and I'd definitely advise that over A) purchasing C300, or B) renting the C300 for more than a couple of weeks.

Someone on this discussion quoted a couple of hundred quid per week for C300. Pretty much everywhere I've looked lists the C300 at 200-300 per day, so I'm wondering whether people have got good deals on bulk ordering. As with everything, the best solution depends on your project.

10 years, 7 months ago - Tim Fok

I used an FS100 almost exclusively for 18months whilst working at a company, regularly hired in fs700s for super slowmo and seconds work.

Now running my own company, I needed a camera in house that was better than a DSLR.

I went with the C100, and never looked back.

The fs100/700 are very very awkward in form factor, 3 step ISO, unresponsive aperture wheel, fiddly buttons, awakardly placed and poor quality LCD.

For me the decision was easy. And I'm not taking purely from the fanboy perspective of the C100, I had the opportunity to choose otherwise but it was the hands down better camera.

You'll enjoy the form factor, well placed buttons. The codec is much much stronger than you'd think (I have a ninja blade and the results are much closer than you'd think), ND wheel is nice and you'll appreciate the focus and exposure aids.

You won't enjoy the tiny volume knobs, 16-bit audio, poor colour reproduction display. But if you trust your custom WBs and are cautious with audio you'll get on fine.

10 years, 7 months ago - James Bayliss-Smith

Hi, I'm the guy who just did the shoot for Nat Geo that Lucas mentioned earlier. Well all I can say is Nat Geo didn't mind or probably more accurately the production company didn't mind me using C100 (although it took quite a bit of explaining/persuading). Nat geo will probably never know. They certainly won't be able to tell the difference as Pro Res 422 HQ is technically better quality than what can be encoded internally on the C300. I have read somewhere that the colours are better as well but I've not done a test. I was paid an extra UKP2000 (3 week shoot) for kit and I spent this on a 2nd hand C100. The cheapest rental I could find for a c300 in Beijing was £70 per day without lenses so it was like buying a C100 for around UKP500 so a no brainier for me. (as I would have had to rent a c300 for about UKP1500). Now my dilemma is whether to sell it straight away. It has the Auto Focus upgrade and I could probably get UKP2000 for it again perhaps? That would increase my 'pay' for this shoot by UKP2000. I have a 5D MKiii with all the add ons (including ATOMOS Ninja star) if I need to make videos for people and for camera jobs I could just rent in. Its a bit of a dilemma as with the C100 MK2 on its way (is it here yet?). My C100 MK1 is rapidly losing value. Anyways I'm tempted to keep it but it is a hassle shooting with the Ninja (only a bit but still) in particular I'm using it with a Zacuto EVF which loops out of the ATOMOS. As this is a clean feed I'm not seeing any of the settings displayed on the VW or even if I'm recording or not. i have to look up at the ATOMOS or at the VF on the C100 to check if I'm rolling. This is a real pain and I'm think of just cutting my losses and buying a 'real' camera that doesn't need all these bits hanging off. What do you think? Anyone want a C100 for UKP 2000 ;-)

There is talk of a c300 mmii. If bought when released I'm sure this camera will pay for itself. In fact I think that is the key with investing in gear these days buy as soon as its released if its going to be your workhorse

10 years, 7 months ago - Nigel Rogers

I have owned a FS700 for two years now and it has served me well. A very flexible tool. I have the upgrade and an odyssey 7Q and the 4ktoHd is some of the best HD you can get. 4k is a bonus but for me not yet commercial except for film work. So in upgradeability the c100 has no comparison. As to purchase or hire, the benefit of purchase is you can spend time learning all the detail in settings and functions.

10 years, 7 months ago - John Lubran

'Don't think our little outfit will be investing a lot until the industry has settled on the accepted definition of 'broadcast standard' 4K. As with the term 'HD' the term 4K means different things to different people. What does seem to be emerging is a nice easy to use run and gun camcorder that produces cinematic quality, shallow depth of field etc., and that has all the easy audio and picture ergonomics of PMW 200/300, Z1, Canon 305 etc., but has 35m CMOS sensor, or even better a new generation 35m CCD, with variable bit rates up to more than 200mbps at EBU sanctioned 4K, for less than £5,000 plus VAT. It's just around the next corner! Makes all this current mickey mouse lego construction passe.

10 years, 7 months ago - Lucas Jedrzejak

Adam, this is very useful feedback! Thanks very much. Friend of mine recently been commissioned a series for NatGeo shooting on C100 with Ninja drive in China so it sounds like the camera is still a capable contender!

10 years, 7 months ago - Michelle Tofi

Yes for that reason alone - replacing the list with camera based criteria - you should be able to get it past QC with the external recorder. However we have been told when shooting content for the BBC they simply don't accept it. As I've said - I'm not sure how they would ever know you shot that way if you're editing out of house and delivering a finished product but that's just what we were told. We shot on C300 instead - with the occasional c100 and ninja shot for b-roll (you're allowed a percentage of shots in your program to not meet spec afterall)

10 years, 7 months ago - Michelle Tofi

@Lucas Jedrzejak Hi Lucas, just an FYI the BBC don't actually accept footage shot using the c100 and Atomos adapter according to their guidelines - though I do know people who have snuck that footage through ;) so it depends what kind of broadcast work you do. Like Nigel I also own the FS700, but having said the above if I had my time again I'd go with the c100 purely for low light performance. I'm not a fan of the noise pattern of the fs700 at all, and if you're doing doc work you might want to consider that - although he's spot on about the HD pull down from 4k; it's stunning with the odyssey 7Q. So really it depends on what you're likely to be shooting. I'd love to know where this rumoured c300 for a couple of hundred quid a week rental deal is! C300 packages I've seen are usually about £180 plus vat a day, which even if a rental hike does you a four day a week favour is quite a lot.

10 years, 7 months ago - Tim Fok

All record to the same 3 flavours of Apple ProRes 422 (standard LT and HQ).

Ninja Star has no screen, just in via micro HDMI and rely on the lights to know its recording, does so to CFast.

Ninja 2 has a screen for reference, full size HDMI and uses 2.5" HDs.

Ninja Blade has a screen that can be used as a reference monitor for both focus and exposure, very good screen. same full size HDMI and 2.5" HDs.

10 years, 7 months ago - Tim Fok

Lastly to the discussion, you don't have to dig up your camera into a mess of magic arms and ball heads.

Check out the wooden camera top plate for c100, that gives you a top cheese plate and 15mm rod off the front.

With this you can gracefully rig a wooden EVF mount or Zacuto axis mini.

10 years, 7 months ago - Nick Hilton

Tim says it all. But Canon were offering the Ninja Star specifically as a free extra with purchase of the full-price C100 body. Not sure if the deal still stands, but I'm guessing that most C100 owners at this point use one of the Ninjas.

10 years, 7 months ago - Nick Hilton

I have it on good authority (i.e. people who have had footage broadcast by BBC) that the BBC's guidelines are much more flexible than they seem in the document.

10 years, 7 months ago - Lucas Jedrzejak

Nick, excuse my ignorance, but apart of the price, what is the main diference between Ninja star, blade or ninja 2? I presume they can all be set to record 10bit 1920p at 422 50mb, is that correct? If so they'd comply with EBU standards. If this is the case I guess the cheapest one (star) should do just ok (?)

On the rental kit note. I think Paddy mentioned deals at £200 week for c100 but this could be down to several factors including several wks of hire, bringing the price down. I head some deals with hirethecamera, where I took couple of camcorders along with water housing and lights and got a few days before and after the shoot free of charge but had to pay quite a heafty deposit on it.

Some companies offer finance and rent free if you're working on exciting broadcast projects and willing to promote their latest kit. I've done that in the past too. Problem is that it would never be our choice of the kit but what's needing a promotion.

10 years, 7 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Hi Lucas, I'm not in any kind of position to give a blow by blow comparison however I am wondering if rental might be cost effective for you? It'll depend on how many days a week you're shooting regularly, however camera bodies do seem to depreciate/go out of date extremely quickly. If you can hire a C300 for a couple of hundred quid a week it's worth costing up hiring based on realistic usage. If you shoot 4 days a week, every week, probably buy - if it's a few days clustered here and there, renting may make more sense and let some other soul maintain it. It's not like we have to worry about tape head hours on rental kit any more!

10 years, 7 months ago - Mät King

Does anybody have the link or is able to explain how the C100 with external recorder doesn't fulfil the BBC guidelines yet fulfils the EBU ones?
I thought the BBC followed the EBU guidelines.

Still puzzled
M

10 years, 7 months ago - Mät King

The C100 has dropped in price radically since the MK2 was announced, and stocked. (Said he, bitterly, having bought one pre-announcement. Don't we all just love Canon. That's another thread) Very recently there were offers that included the Ninja Star as a free ad on. Worth checking around.
I've used mine with and without external recorders depending upon the job and requirements. It's been a fantastic piece of kit and easy to use. And now at such a fantastic price.
I was under the impression that with an external recorder it fulfilled the EBU standards, and in turn the BBC's. I thought the list idea had gone and a camera had to fit a criteria. Please advise. Intrigued.

10 years, 7 months ago - Adam Russell

I own and use a C100 and the internal codec is a bit pants. Wherever possible I attach my Atomos Ninja and that records at a much higher rate than the C300. I must say shooting in C-Log the image is excellent and grades very nicely (it won't grade anywhere near as good off the SD cards). With the ninja attached its a bit cumbersome for run and gun shooting but fine for mainly tripod work. I hired the FS700 once only because I needed slo mo, shooting in Slog there really wasn't much in it for me. I'm heavily invested in Canon glass so the C100 was the best route for me. Good Luck, Adam

10 years, 7 months ago - Lucas Jedrzejak

Thanks very much guys for all your invaluable thoughts and advice. It seems there's a strong preference for the EOS family and so I also decided to go for C100 with atomos ninja 2/ ninja blade bundle. Despite looking like Xmas tree with too many attachments/magic arms etc I thought this is the cam to go for. After having done some little research on broadcast eligible parameters, turns out that most broadcasters, except of the Beebs of course, don't list cams but parameters and those being 50 mb 422 pro res 1920 which through the ninja recording is easily achievable. I guess it's a shame not being able to shoot 50 fps but how often do we get asked to shoot that frame rate anyway? I believe for any serious production one commissions a proper slow mo phantom type camera but not over/under cranking frames with twixtor manicure in post.
Once again thanks very much folks and if I don't post c100 for sale on this forum soon then I'll hopefully keep it for some time happy shooting :)

10 years, 7 months ago - Mutiny Media

At our company we use the Ninja 2 / C100 combo, with great results.

We rent out the C100 / Ninja 2 at £150 a day (we don't charge VAT), but we run 4 day weeks and one day hire over weekends. Are you based in London? You can stop by our office and check them out if you want.

Cheers
Sam
www.mutinymedia.co.uk
hire@mutinymedia.co.uk
0207 287 6690