ASK & DISCUSS

INDEX

Cutting through the Wood to see the Trees

9 years, 2 months ago - Chris Bogle

Hello gang, hope you're all enjoying the sunny weather.

Craft question for the drama directors/editors out there. Still up to the eyes in the edit of my short, this is the first drama of substance I've ever cut. It's been three months now, fitting in editing a day or two a week around my daytime corporate/commercial gigs.

I've found that I am now completely unable to judge the film, it's painful to edit but I'm utterly numb to the pacing and structure. I literally have no idea whether it works or not.

I've thrown it out to friends and film makers hoping to find some consensus. The other day I got two comments back. "It's too long! Cut it back and fix the pacing!". The other: "It's too short! Let it breathe and fix the pacing!"

It's driving me insane. How do you old drama hands manage to find the distance to be able to see the wood for the trees? I need to get this wrapped up fairly soon but I find I'm now spending hours tinkering with cuts and music rather than making any meaty changes.

Can anyone relate/advise? (Yes I know I should have hired an editor but I threw the kitchen sink at the production.:) )

Only members can post or respond to topics. LOGIN

Not a member of SP? JOIN or FIND OUT MORE

Answers older then 1 month have been hidden - you can SHOW all answers or select them individually
Answers older then 1 month are visible - you can HIDE older answers.

9 years, 2 months ago - Dan Selakovich

I've actually written an article about this:

http://www.watchindie.net/2015/10/27/why-a-director-shouldnt-edit-their-own-movie/

The bottom line: you can't be objective. It's impossible. "Make it shorter" or "make it longer" have absolutely no value, so I feel for you. You have to look what's hidden in those comments. In the end you'll find that the audience isn't connecting with the characters. If they were, a long film wouldn't seem long at all. You're losing your audience, gaining them back, then losing them again. Your tone is probably uneven if you get comments that are in opposition to one another.

In general, there are basically 2 schools of thought in editing. The most popular is to cut based on what you want to emphasize at any given moment. For example, you cut to a close up on "That Line" to give it some heft. The problem with that kind of cutting is that the rhythm can be awkward or weird if the actor isn't demanding a CU at that moment.

The 2nd school of thought is to cut to character. Let the actors guide you on pacing. This draws the audience in more, and they become emotionally connected to the characters. This is the way I prefer.

Determine what each scene is saying, then cut for the best emotional impact to get that message across. You need to somehow step back, and see it for the first time. Outside of getting a professional editor, the best way is to not look at it for a month, then start fresh.

What I would do, is get 12 people that have never seen the film or read the script. They can't know anything about the film. (At the risk of upsetting people here, I'd stay away from film students. They've not internalized what they've learned yet, and that can be counterproductive). When I do this, I have people inside and outside of the industry. Film professionals can probably be more specific on how to fix something, but civilians feel when something is wrong, and that can be more valuable. Screen it for them, and don't be defensive. Really listen. If they are vague, start asking questions. And don't ask about cutting, ask about character.

In the end, you'll be blind to your own edit. You can have a terrible cut in there, and to you it will look absolutely fine. I can't tell you how many times I've made one simple change early in a scene, then the entire scene just flows beautifully after that. Keep in mind that if a friend points out a bad cut, it may not be THAT specific cut, but an edited you made 4 cuts back.

At this point, you have to question every scene, every character motivation, every cut, every line of dialogue to find your way out of the forest. Let nothing slide. You have to find your way back to a beginner's mind somehow. Ideally, you need an editor to edit this picture for you.

Just remember: you'll never get it to a point that pleases everyone. But if everyone hates something different, congratulations! If 5 people are confused by the same thing, it's an issue.

Response from 9 years, 2 months ago - Dan Selakovich SHOW

9 years, 2 months ago - Dan Selakovich

Crap. Sorry about the typos. I even read the thing before hitting submit. But this brings up a good point: we can't see all the flaws in our own work.

Response from 9 years, 2 months ago - Dan Selakovich SHOW

9 years, 2 months ago - Chris Bogle

That's brilliant Dan - it's just good to hear it's not a unique problem. I know it's not of course, but still it's good to hear. :)

Biggest concern at this point is EXACTLY what you pointed out there - that I end up with an awful cut and not realise it. Or almost worse, that I put it out there to the same lukewarm reactions I've been getting "it's intriguing.... it's OK... there's a film in there somewhere.... it has potential...". It's driving me nuts. The other battle of course is with that voice saying, "maybe the film just isn't good and never will be". Kinda like being insane - how do you know if you are or not?

I sussed today that if everyone's saying different things about the length, then that's probably pointing to the flow and rhythm rather than the actual length. Everyone can follow the action, everyone likes it, no-one has been blown away yet.

I'll watch your vid tonight dude, thanks for the link and the good words!

Response from 9 years, 2 months ago - Chris Bogle SHOW

9 years, 2 months ago - Chris Bogle

Or read your article even!! It's excellent - makes a boat load of sense.

Response from 9 years, 2 months ago - Chris Bogle SHOW

9 years, 2 months ago - Chris Bogle

One thing though - I would say that although immensely painful and probably a one time thing, editing this film has been an incredible education I probably wouldn't have if I had an editor. As a director I was bricking it that I didn't have coverage. Turns out my 'editor' didn't need it. I've learned a lot about what I did right and wrong in production through the edit. Whether it's worth the price I'm paying now is up for debate hehe.

Response from 9 years, 2 months ago - Chris Bogle SHOW

9 years, 2 months ago - Dan Selakovich

Yep. All those lessons are invaluable. There are lots of editors here at SP. Since everything is digital, why not give the footage to someone that needs to build a reel or just practice narrative cutting. You wouldn't have to use their cut, on the other hand, you might be pleasantly surprised. Make sure you're clear with them about maybe not using their cut!

But this too, could be invaluable: seeing how another sees your footage and your film as a whole. I'd suggest just handing over the footage and the script, and just leave them alone with it with no direction.

Response from 9 years, 2 months ago - Dan Selakovich SHOW

9 years, 2 months ago - Chris Bogle

@Dan Selakovich so I just watched the film again twice. First time with no audio. Second time I flopped the whole sequence. It was like watching a completely different film and I managed 4 pages of notes!!!

Response from 9 years, 2 months ago - Chris Bogle SHOW

9 years, 2 months ago - Dan Selakovich

@Chris Bogle What a great idea. I wish I would have recommended that! I remember often the times I turned the sound down on my old moviola when a scene was giving me trouble. Thanks for the flashback!

Response from 9 years, 2 months ago - Dan Selakovich SHOW