ASK & DISCUSS INDEX

11 years, 9 months ago - Jinan C

Thank you both for your replies, and the last post/question made me laugh :) Good point... I need to think about it.

I guess there's no way of specifying in the credit, how little a contribution this person made! Food for thought though... thanks.

11 years, 9 months ago - Dan Selakovich

I too, have been an editor for many years. 99 percent of my work has been "saving" films, and I never got credit, but I knew that going in. (It especially hits home when you sign that non-disclosure agreement). Which means the original editor got credit for something he/she wasn't largely responsible for. But, having said that, perhaps they were fine editors that had to work with a director that didn't know what they were doing or what they wanted. It's also common for first time directors to turn editors into machine operators. So I don't feel at all bad that these editors got credit and I didn't. Perhaps this editor feels the same way. You should ask. After all, if your creative differences were so far apart, perhaps he doesn't even want credit.

I have to say that there is a lot you left out. How long did this editor work on your film? Did he show you a different way of looking at something that you hadn't thought of? Did you really rework everything he did? Or did you take segments he finished, and move them to a different point in the film? There is a lot an editor contributes to that doesn't involve the act of cutting. Really figure that out, setting ego aside.

I'm not going to be as hard on you as Andy, (though I agree with the theme of his post), only because I've known some awful editors, though none as bad as the picture you paint. Perhaps you're not giving him his due. Keep in mind, you asked him to come in on a picture you've worked 2 years on already, then expect him to be up to speed. It doesn't work that way, ESPECIALLY on a documentary where puzzle pieces can fit anywhere. It takes time to just view what is probably an inordinate amount of footage, much less edit that in to a cohesive narrative.

Perhaps "Associate Editor" or "Additional Editing" is appropriate if what you are saying is actually accurate. Before posting here, perhaps it would have been a good idea to discuss this with the editor in question. Only you and he know what really went on. But it's not too late for that. Find out his argument for his work and consider your own. The truth is probably somewhere in-between.

For me, personally, I wouldn't take a credit if I didn't feel my contribution warranted it. But I'm used to working in the shadows.

11 years, 9 months ago - Jim Page

"additional editing by". I think thats a fair compromise.

If there's no contractual obligation, then its down to your own conscience.

11 years, 9 months ago - chris quintana harris

Sounds like you are too close to the project so you're never going to find someone who will totally have your vision for the project. I think a huge part of film making is the collaboration and buying into what other key members of the team bring to the table. It's always the directors baby but ultimately it needs clothes from all the other departments. I'd be really surprised if he'd want the credit but if he does give it to him just not in first position so everyone will know he was not the key editor. Good luck.

11 years, 9 months ago - Marlom Tander

Personally "Consulting Editor" carries a degree of expertise you clearly didn't get.

Also, does he really want the credit? If the credit is likely to result in people calling you asking for a reference, "Well Bob, do you really want people asking me about how good an editor you are, and how well you take Directors instructions?"

11 years, 9 months ago - Jinan C

I have to say that I’m sorry if my post was taken as an attack – that wasn’t my intention at all, and I’m not criticizing anyone, only reaching out for advice on a difficult situation, which therefore needs to be explained, problems and all. This person is not a beginning editor, but someone with quite a few credits to their name, and a filmmaker in their own right. In fact, they had reached out to me a couple of times over the last year to ask me if I wanted any help or advice on the film – which is why I feel they oversold themselves and their abilities. All editors are different – but I can only mention my experience.

Andy, I didn’t pay this person a low fee at all (even by indie film-making standards. The bulk of the post-production grant I received, was allocated to paying for an editor!), so that’s a rather unfounded assumption.

I mentioned that I paid them for all of time that we worked together, which was half of the time that we had originally agreed on to get the film completed. They worked on the project for 4 weeks out of an agreed 8 week time-frame for completion – which they knew about coming in, and which they said was sufficient in their own experience.

I hired a second editor to get a fresh perspective on the material. I don’t for a moment underestimate the pressure and challenges involved in someone coming in on to a completely new project, and who is also expected to come up with ideas quickly. But I didn’t drop them in at the deep end – it was agreed ahead of time that I would be with this person through the whole process, that I was very open to new ideas and approaches, but that I naturally have an overall vision for the film, and was looking to re-think the structure of a film that already had a number of scenes edited, though even there I was open and flexible and looking for someone competent. I was too close to the material and wanted a fresh perspective and some distance – surely nothing wrong with that? A film treatment and full transcript was provided in advance, for what it’s worth.

The issue is that this person neither contributed any substantive ideas of their own, even though I asked them to and very much wanted to hear their ideas, but also that at the basic level of film editing and cutting, when I gave them space to work in their own way, the cuts didn’t work, and I don’t mean in a subjective way, as in I didn’t like their style - I mean at the level of basic principles of editing and visual language, continuity etc, having to explain that two siblings of the same gender who look similar, could not be "passed off" as the same person, or even the same voice - if anything because they are real people whose real voices I needed to respect and distinguish etc – I don’t want to go into more detail, because then this post will be a very different post to the one I intended it to be, but it was all a bit of a shock.

What was useful, was that having another editor there allowed me to clarify my own ideas about the film, and I discussed them with this person – which was valuable, though I really wanted to hear clear ideas from them.

Ultimately, they didn’t get much editing done at all, because of their pace and workflow – though as I say the time frame was one they said they could manage - and also because of their judgement on certain things. After 3 weeks I suggested that we switch places so I could do some further editing, to step up our progress and in the hope that it might take the pressure off of them and free them up to contribute ideas – but that also didn’t work out.

I know a lot of directors are very attached to their films (and to their egos!), but if anything, I was looking for someone to help take the project in hand and it just didn’t happen. It's an unfortunate situation all round, and I think reflected their true level of experience. It's also been a learning experience for me about how to approach hiring someone next time. I'm over it (though it's cost me a lot of time). It is what it is.

I think the main point that has been raised here is that I should speak to them and discuss it. I was only seeking advice ahead of time because it’s a new situation for me and I wanted some ideas going in. Thanks for your suggestions.

11 years, 9 months ago - Jinan C

Yes I think it's a good idea that I write to the person - though the real issue is that none of their editing is going to remain in the film (which didn't amount to much in the end anyway because their pace was quite slow). So it's a little awkward, but as you say Maria, perhaps their expectations will fit with how I feel about it too. I don't want to spring it on the person, that their name isn't there or is credited in a particular way that surprises them, but while I paid them for their time, they didn't contribute much to the edit itself.

Adriano - I didn't have an opportunity to see full examples of this person's work, though I did see partial samples of work they had edited online, which seemed professional enough (and I saw their CV, with a number of television credits and a degree from a top film school), but for the life of me, I can't understand some of the decisions this person made when we worked together. I don't know if for these other jobs, there was very tight management and so this person was more of a technical editor under tight direction, but to put it bluntly, it was risking becoming a liability to continue joint work, and my film is a relatively straight-forward documentary.

In terms of a credit -which is why I first came up with consulting editor (which does grant too much), if anything, it was useful to discuss ideas with the person, certainly, but none of their editing work is in the film. This is why I'm a bit stuck, but I want to be fair. I will get in touch with the person, certainly.

11 years, 9 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

There are no rules, the edit police will not come and arrest you for using an inappropriate credit.

For inspiration, look at production credits where we have producer, executive producer, line producer, co producer, associate producer, creative producer, production manager, production supervisor, director of production and other aetheric titles. Most are pretty bogus titles that get handed out to make people feel validated.

How about something like Edit Assembler, Assembly Editor, Second Editor ... Something where you can both agree it sounds respectable but doesn't misrepresent things?

11 years, 9 months ago - Adriano Cirulli

Weren't you able to see some examples of this person's work before starting a collaboration?

11 years, 9 months ago - ANDY LEWIS

I am a director, however I worked for 40 years as a professional editor. I'd like to put forward the editor's perspective.

If you want an editor to join up the film fine. If you want a creative, an editor who puts 'artistry' into the film, that's different.

It seems to me that your vision of your film is fixed. If that's right the editor should have been made aware of that before hiring him or her.

Try giving your next editor a brief, a layout, a script, a pile of great footage and a pile of money, oh and a duration. You'll get a film.

Your editor was brought in after the edit has been partly edited . Why was that? As they were 'paid' a low fee I suspect they wanted to get the job done ASAP. It's time/£ consuming to have two creatives forcing their disparate visions onto a project.

I am disappointed that this forum can be used to criticize someone, especially an editor, with the lame excuse about credits.

My suggestion: rework the piece to lose all their effort and then they are no longer the editor

Then you can add Jinan, again, to the credit list.

There are many productions where the editor is plonked in at the end of shooting and expected to make it all work. I have a lot of sympathy for new editors trying to get started here on shooting people. They don't need this sort of post.

Andy

11 years, 9 months ago - Jinan C

Thanks Daniel.

Directors, editors, anyone in any business for that matter, can over-inflate their own sense of aptitude and jeopardize someone else's project in the process. This was a particularly major case. Did I mention that my 8 week schedule was ahead of a deadline for a festival premiere that I may not be able to make now? :) People are people and egos are egos. It's been a hard lesson learned.

The more I think about it though, the more I feel that I should write to this person and tell them (which they already know) that the edit of the film has remained entirely my own and that I'm not sure what kind of credit can feasibly be given - though I had hoped for a different outcome, as I know we both did.

The problem with a case like this, is that when someone is able to so totally misrepresent their abilities, then they probably will have no qualms about publicizing their false role in this film - and maybe with an expectation of a reference from me at the end also, as someone above mentioned! And I really can't risk any of that.

This discussion has clarified a few things for me, and I have some more thinking (and discussing with this person) to do. I should have ended it much sooner than I did, but I flew the person over from abroad, so it felt complicated and humiliating. In the end I was the fool!

11 years, 9 months ago - Daniel Cormack

Kill them with kindness: give them the credit and then if anyone rings up asking about it give them a frank account of their actual role, as opposed to their credited one. (I take it on trust that your account is an accurate one, although I'm not surprised that editors have raised experiences of difficulties with director/ producers in response).

I guess your only problem is if you have an editor working on it subsequently who feels it unfair for their credit to be diluted by someone whose work doesn't survive in the finished film.

Bit annoying to have to pay twice: did you pay them for the full 8 weeks? My concern would have been more about paying for shoddy or unperformed work, unless the credit was a particular obstruction to getting a new editor going forward.

11 years, 9 months ago - Daniel Cormack

The lesson I learnt a while ago was always to follow up references.

It's always interesting to see the discepancies which turn up when people ring you about someone who claims certain credits or accomplishments while working for you. You would not believe some of the whoppers I have come across. The audacity and foolishness of the small minority of chancers is quite outstanding and I sometimes ponder putting together a list of them for wider delectation.

...But life is simply too short.

11 years, 9 months ago - Maria Gambale

I think for myriad reasons, it's good to check in with the person and see what they think. These things happen all the time, and I'm not assuming that one of you is right or wrong. So, just as a common step, I think if the nature of the agreement is changing, then a conversation is warranted. That's just a simple, nice courtesy, and may actually even make your life easier. They might have very reasonable expectations, might let you off the hook entirely, might not themselves want to be associated with the project - you could be surprised.

Just going by what you're saying, and not knowing their side of the story, I'd say that "Additional Editing" could also be an appropriate consideration. It's good to go into the conversation armed with some ideas for alternatives, but be open to what they're saying too.

Good luck!

11 years, 9 months ago - David Graham Scott

Yes...I agree with James Page who says 'additional editing by' . There may have been something he added to the project even in a small way. If you're re-editing the whole thing then obviously you should be credited editor.

11 years, 9 months ago - Dan Selakovich

Well, Jinan, that is a horse of a different color. Trying to pass off two different subjects as the same person in a doc? That alone should have gotten him fired. I admire the fact that you want to give him credit, but with just that on instance, I'd say he doesn't deserve it.

Not only is there nothing wrong with fresh eyes, it's absolutely necessary. In every film I do, I have about a dozen people that I screen cuts for. They can't know anything about the film, and it's a cross section of people: from editors, to directors, to people not in the industry at all. It's invaluable.

One thing I might offer a bit of advice on; never take over for an editor. It's better to sack him. If it truly gets to that point, there is no reason to have him around. And this advice coming from an editor. Years ago I was an editor on a TV show. They hired someone that looked good on paper to meet a pushed up dead-line from the network for one of the episodes. Like your guy, he just had no clue about narrative editing, and within 3 days, that was completely apparent. He was fired, and he was pissed. I finished up my episode, and had to take over his. He created more work for us than he contributed to. This sounds very much like the same situation, except our producer nipped it in the bud before it got too out of hand.

Don't be shocked by the blow-back to your post. More often than not the roles are reversed: a very skilled editor being brought down by an incompetent director. It's incredibly common.

11 years, 9 months ago - Jinan C

I meant to say thanks "Dan", in response to the last post :)