ASK & DISCUSS INDEX

10 years, 7 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren

Thanks John.

Does that mean that you own your own drone/GoPro kit and hire in a 15 year old for your shoots? Is he qualified to pilot? Interested to see how you manage the logistics.

Best

Lee

10 years, 7 months ago - John Lubran

There's a quantum leap in cost and technicalities once one gets into heavier drones for cameras over about 700 grams and exponentially for those over c.1,500 grams. However in the under £2,000 range one should be able to put a pretty viable system together based on camera like the GoPro 4K. Even though not strictly meeting EBU HD they are already appearing regularly within HD broadcasts. How can one deny the dynamic quality of a well conceived and executed flying camera that looks good enough to pose as a £2k or £3k sequence for virtually nothing, and at 4K too!.

10 years, 7 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Yep, used one on last film but with mixed results. We used a professional company from the SouthWest but didn't get the best from them - partly our fault, partly theirs. Team of three came in a fully-laden van. Pilot, camera plus one.

Pilots - They were CAA registered and qualified commercial pilots, as you need to know what clearances to get/arrange with CAA. Be aware any muppet can buy a drone and fly it illegally, so go with the pros.
Planning - in the flurry of everything else, the complex opening shot was refused due to tree clearance issues on the road and because we raced into production with insufficient preproduction time to close alternative roads.
Stability of rig - a good drone carries a midweight camera on a stabilised gimbal. This was great until we needed a camera move, the moves were not at all smooth, but quite sharp. Not sure how much this was down to the specific kit used, but I was horrified when I saw the rushes.
Camera - see below, you probably can't use what you're planning to use, but the weight factor will be huge too - you're not getting an Alexa up there, so you'll have mismatching footage. That said, the Panasonic G4 (??) seems to actually be a decent and cheap alternative, so you may find the hire company can supply their own.
Insurance - there was a shift this summer where a new gap has emerged between what you can insure and what you want to do. So many amateurs are crashing so many drones, drone companies can no longer get insurance to cover your camera/lenses - but neither can you get third party insurace (or at least that was this summer).
Batteries - be aware you get very limited flying time (which will vary with kit, naturally).
Focus - you cannot really use a follow focus without the extra weight, so it's set and forget. This was our biggest problem in the end as the operating company set focus near to read the slate, but didn't reset to far for the craning shot. The playback really showed it up. Unlikely to happen to you, but just in case
Downdraught - vertical take-off/pullback shot - it takes a lot of air movement to lift a 1.5m drone plus camera, so anything on the ground gets blown about a lot. Just factor it in.

Cost - well the soft footage meant we came to an agreement, but it's not cheap and it is slow. Would I use a drone again? Yep but for very specific shots. It's all well and good to be as ambitious as our director was with shots, but hope and ambition is no substitute for a full recce and proper advance planning. Things move slowly. It's certainly no substitute for a decent jib/crane and operator, but can be nice in addition.

10 years, 6 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren

Hey Paulina,

Thanks for that... Very useful. I put an order in for the DJI Inspire 1, then next step up from the Phantom 2...

Best

Lee

10 years, 6 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren

Thanks Nigel. Are there any benefits of the phantom/goPro vs the Inspire 1 for image quality? Does the Inspire 1 have the FPV built in or is that an add on?

And most importantly, have you used the Phantom much ? Pros and cons of a drone on a shoot from your pov? would you use again?

Thanks.

Lee

10 years, 7 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren

Thanks guys. Thanks all very useful to know. I was looking at the DJI Phantom Plus that comes with its own full HD camera and gimbal for under £1000... any thoughts?

10 years, 7 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Also as above, be aware the chances of being able to insure a red and glassware are very very low since this summer precisely because more people are trying to get drone shots for cheap and crashing them. The professional companies with track records can't get cover any more for the payloads, so a camera you can treat as a consumable may be your better bet. That red would also need to consider the weight of a remote follow focus ideally too.

This is such a fast-changing sector, vehicles are getting superseded in a matter of months according to companies I've spoken with. I know they're finding it hard to keep up when a decent flying rig is £20k but needs such regular upgrading!

One last thing, it really is worth getting someone truly responsible to do your piloting, if a rotor fails with any kind of load, or a connection shakes lose, whatever, the unit is effectively bringing a heap of 12' high speed spinning knives down with it - can cause significant damage or injury so shouldn't be flown over the public etc.

One last thing, probably not an issue yet but will become so - hijacking! Some systems may use analogue controls where they're sharing frequencies with other rigs - possible to deliberately or accidentally affect control with a second control system. This may not be a concern but probably worth considering in the longer term. A TV video sender, microwave, or other equipment in the 2.4GHz band will be more easily affected than specifically licenced frequencies. Just a thought.

10 years, 7 months ago - John Lubran

Thanks for that Lee. By meeting, even exceeding, broadcast standards the DJI really does seem to be getting low cost camera drones to a further level. Love the dual control option and indoor positioning too. Should make those tricky focus pulls much easier. It's $4k US so might only be around £3.5K UK plus VAT here. One of my friends has just taken a course and acquired his CAA licence, for less than grand all in, I think. So for those who need to get into commercially viable aerial filming with decent kit it's very accessible. One can get all sorts of work other than film and TV as well. As Paddy has stated there's some shots that are not best suited to a drone but there's plenty that are, particularly anywhere that's not within concrete jungles or on busy main roads though even they are not always too much of a challenge. Insurance and liability issues can be mitigated by one or two possible structural set ups, for those with the imagination; I'm not going to detail what they are here, but it's not quantum physics. That Ronin alternative to a Steadicam shown on the DGI website also looks pretty cracking to me. Remember when a Steadicam cost over £20,000 and learning to operate it took months? If you were physically up to it! Consequently to hire an operator and kit also required a big budget. Just as big budget helicopter shots are no longer a barrier with drones, it's looking the same with Steadicam alternatives; that Ronin looks much easier to use. Those 'money shots' are now available to anyone by the looks of what’s on YouTube. It's getting harder for the professionals to move the goal post out of their reach; we'll just have to rely more on great subject matter, craft skills and stories then!

10 years, 7 months ago - John Lubran

As a rule it's better to get the best kit and crew possible; however we've had very viable results from £1,500 worth of kit using a fairly basic four rotor drone from Maplins with a gyro stabilised camera gimble, a wireless monitor and a Go-pro. The recent improvements to Go-Pro audio and 4K resolution, for peanuts prices, suggest just where kit prices are heading - Way Way Down, in every area, further empowering and democratising high end film production for more people. Comparing operational ease with the significant challenge of radio control helicopters for example, there's no comparison, pretty much anyone capable of walking and talking at the same time can be, at the least, competent; as ever practice and enthusiasm transform competence into high skill, very quickly. Our best operator right now is just 15 years old!

10 years, 7 months ago - John Lubran

Just to add, upon reading Paddy's recent experience, my own experience is limited to lightweight systems within relatively low budget non-fictional productions, though I can easily imagine them to be viable for quite a lot of other types of film too, if used skilfully and appropriately. Using heavier cameras and rigs is altogether something else, although the Panasonic G4, the 4K Go-Pro and an increasing number of new light cameras do provide excellent results. Whether or not those cameras can cut nicely with mega buck types must depend on how it's used.

The great thing about having your own kit is that it's cheap to buy and you have it with you not just for the window in the schedule where a van load of crew and kit are booked but for when the opportunity is best in a changing weather environment. Instant feedback also means mistakes can be more easily corrected straight away by having another go. The more ambitious the take is however with tricky focus pulls and all, well that does add another dimension. Used within a comfortable operational envelope however one can achieve the sort of shots that were previously unobtainable with low budgets and restricted resources. I agree with Paddy though that for lower altitude stuff within a closer subject radius a jib is best.

10 years, 7 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren

Yes, that makes perfect sense. There are obviously places where other options would be more appropriate. As you suggested quite rightly.

Here's another option, also from DJI - https://store.dji.com/product/inspire-1

Higher price, better 4K camera producing 60 Mbps at a range of sizes, 4k, 1080 and 720 as well as frame rates... Still not prefect, but getting closer.

I just spoke with a prod co who I work with from time to time to see if they would use one of these on there promos and corporates and the answer was a definite YES if the day rate was right...

10 years, 7 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Hey Lee,

Tracking a vehicle - it'll vary by council but road closure is almost certainly in order whereas flatbed you can use on open roads with decent cameras, director to coordinate action, real lighting, etc. It may also be questionable insurance-wise if the talent has an accident whilst filming. I'd personally suggest a lowered flatbed as better for any length of take, and for a moving take, use a camera jib vehicle like http://www.offtrax.co.uk/cameratrackingve.html. You can get complex shots legally without closure of roads. Director wanted to try a complex tracking shot for 2 vehicles as an opening shot. He could visualise it, but couldn't imagine just how complex the logistics were for a shot we eventually couldn't get and just wasted hours. A similar result could have been got with the vehicle job, but that's not as 'sexy', directors have dreams involving toys, but not always practically minded.

Drone shot ought to come into its own for what would otherwise be a helicopter shot, but it's something different from a crane shot.

10 years, 7 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren

There are option for the GoPro 4k... And on the Spreading Wings S900 which supports the Z15, GH3, GH4, and BMPCC on a 3-Axis Gimbal... for around £2,498 (plus camera)...

Would that meet the requirements or are you talking something for a Red or similar size camera? I guess you'd be going into the 10s of thousands for that set up!

10 years, 7 months ago - John Lubran

Had a look at some of the video samples on YouTube for the DJI Phantom Plus. The first thing that jumps right out is the very staggered motion handling. It's what I was saying about cheap 1080 HD cameras; It's easy now for cheap cameras to offer HD and even 4K for peanuts. It's motion that gets sacrificed in order to provide viable, though not great, contrast latitude. The wide angle fixed lens is a semi fish eye. So I'd say that the included camera its not good enough for professional production standards and certainly falls well below broadcast standard. The drone itself seems like good value but then so are other models. For me I'd go for a drone with good customisation options with regards to fitting better cameras.

10 years, 7 months ago - John Lubran

Gotta be careful here Lee ;-))

Somewhat spookily, just minutes after I posted the above message, I received this email advert from

http://www.copter-cam.co.uk/

Considering everything, their 'from' £375 per day deal looks pretty good.

Certainly there are a whole load of statutes governing the use of drones for commercially linked projects, i.e., being paid to film from a drone. So one can either pay a fully licensed operator (the licensing process is not too onerous, probably looking at a few hundred pounds in all) or one can fly as a private amateur with very few restraints other than the Common Law and those affecting ‘controlled airspace’ above 200 feet. Of course it's not legal (though it may well be lawful) to use footage created by a such an amateur if one has actually and knowingly, with aforethought, colluded with such an amateur in order to avoid the intentions and restraints of the legislation. Clearly therefore, any footage used that has been filmed by such an amateur can only be legitimately used in a commercially exploited film provided that the footage was not specifically commissioned or paid for by the producer AT THE TIME OF THE FILMING. There are other considerations concerning third party insurance and the actual, rather than any spurious misinterpretations that may be asserted (sometimes by only 'quazily' qualified 'officials'), of what the status of any aerial space may be in terms of being a private or public domain. As with filming any private domain from a public one, which is entirely lawful, there are restraints on using equipment, such as long lenses and concealed bugs, that might amount to an unlawful invasion of privacy if the invaded party has taken reasonable steps to defend that privacy (accept where such an invasion is associated with investigative documentary for a legitimate public interest which is almost totally limited to exposing a civil or criminal offence and not a process not wearing any knickers). According to legislation, filming from the air might amount to such an unlawful invasion if the camera is positioned within 50m of that private place.

So to conclude, statute legislation, (as differentiated from actual law), is a blunt instrument and I imagine that it’s blunt enough, for those determined and learned enough, to blow quite a few holes in it. As ever though fiction and arts films must take much more care with regards to copyrights and privacy than factuals need to.

I’m certainly not suggesting that anyone should breech any lawful legislation. One should use one’s own brains and means according to ones circumstances. Cap doffers however, need not apply.

Those are the main ‘logistics’ to consider; the operational logistics in terms of technical’s and equipment are probably self evident enough and not very challenging. Oh and of course, our 15 year old cannot be hired!

Happy New year Lee and to all the lovely people who contribute here.

10 years, 7 months ago - Nigel Rogers

I am a DOP who owns a phantom/go pro combo, a ronin and a jib, prices are so low you can try them out and often get shots that would otherwise be missed. Regarding quality, DJi cameras have quite low grade sensors so whilst they ramp them up to get the spec the result is not always so good. Go pro are more flexible in post and distortion can be corrected and 4k gives plenty to crop from. I would agree a good operator is needed, whilst anyone can fly them they do take practice and common sense/experience to operate safely. Having FPV (seeing what the camera is recording with a bit of lag is invaluable so upgrading a phantom or an inspire 1 with it built in are good options although we are looking at more expense. But still half the price of kit to fly bigger cameras. The inspire also comes with gps flight path plotting, so it flies itself whilst you focus on the shot or use two operators one on cam one on flying, still the best option. Overall the opportunity is there to fit most budgets.

10 years, 6 months ago - Paulina Brahm

Hi Lee,

I saw this post and thought maybe it might be useful:

http://www.chrisjonesblog.com/2015/02/shooting-with-drones-ten-tips-for-filming-astounding-footage-on-a-shoestring.html

Best,
Paulina

10 years, 7 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren

That's right. Is the camera any good? I have seen numerous videos of the output and it looks pretty impressive. It apparently has three lens settings: super wide; narrow; tight narrow. Not sure how it does this or if it's a digital crop of some sort!!! But on the super wide there is a lot of wide angle distortion as you might expect when you pan or tilt the camera remotely. Just Google videos for it. There are ton of them. Might be a good entry level to pro ariel cinematography...

Be good if someone here had some first hand experience of using it...

10 years, 7 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren

So set up under £2k is viable, need a decent pilot, and insurance could be a problem... hmmm. Interesting.

What interests me is the money shots on a movie - for a lower budget film. Getting them dynamically, easily or easier, and faster, than say setting up a remote crane for a 30-50 foot pullback shot. or following a car without a flatbed... etc etc... you get my point. They may not be as easy as one thinks to set up, but the benefits, when done right with the correct planning and preparation, should, although not always as in Paddy's experience, pay off.

But are many directors wanting this or producers will to pay for this style of shot here in the UK? There's only John and Paddy who have offered any input or experience so far. For about £500 for a days hire, you could get some pretty spectacular shots, that could increase a films production value, in some respects, even if some additional work in post is needed to match with existing footage.

I'm seriously considering this now for a web series I've got coming up where we were going to originally be using a crane etc for some key aesthetic shots.

Thanks for the input so far guys.

Lee

10 years, 7 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Watch out for bitrate - lower bitrate means more compressed means more artefacting and becoming impossible to grade/match with existing/good footage. Lots of pixels is relatively easy and marketing departments get hung up on providing a big number but as one number goes up, the bitrate per pixel must go down (or other constraints). The camera probably has a rolling 'shutter' which means verticals can become slants and you can get jellycam with vibration. Lots of rubbish dots look worse than fewer better ones ;-)

Basically, the longer you can record on a card, the lower the bitrate. Canon DSLR's are approx 44Mbps at 1080p, cheap camcorders are 17Mbps, I think you can go as low as 11Mbps in AVCHD - as you can imagine, there's not a heap of grading latitude there and you get banding very quickly on gradients etc. That said, at the price, it's cheaper than a day of the professionals and even that doesn't guarantee results per my experience above...

10 years, 7 months ago - John Lubran

Good point Paddy, especially when EBU HD broadcast standards require minimum 50Mbps at 1080 x 1920 with a minimum of three 1/2" chips or 35m imager. Clearly these small cameras struggle to meet those standards but some get close enough, especially at 4K, to justify a drone shot, but they won't yet be given away free with a £1,000 drone, such as with the DJI Phantom Plus.

10 years, 7 months ago - John Lubran

Crikey! That is cheap. Just looked it up, saves money by using your smart phone as a monitor. Can the camera be good enough? The term 1080 HD can be a bit misleading in terms of overall viability these days. It does the desirable automatic get back home feature and a remote control gimbal. A basic requirement must be damped vibration free camera, I'd want to see some results from that camera though. For a bit more a drone that can operate differing cameras such as the sub £400 GoPro 4K might be well worth the extra. They'll be giving away a full feature film production kit with cornflakes soon if this trend continues.