ASK & DISCUSS
INDEXKickstarter - Excited? Exhausted? Bored?
12 years, 2 months ago - Ben Blaine
So as you have hopefully heard my brother and I are currently using Kickstarter to fund a final crucial scene in our debut feature film Nina Forever. If you want to pledge to us you can do so here http://kck.st/10IiALw we have, as I write this, we have just 60 hours left to make our £18k total and save our film and we still need £7.5k.
There's one sector of the audience that has responded much less positively than we expected. Of course we've had a lot of donations from our friends, we've also been incredibly lucky to have had an amazing response from the general public, usually drawn to us by Twitter. But you seem to have completely ignored us.
You haven't even told me to go fuck myself when I implied it made sense for you, an independent filmmaker, to donate at least £1 just to show your support for independent film. (something I say here https://shootingpeople.org/blog/2013/05/why-nina/)
Do you feel over 'Started? Have you already taken too much a Kicking? Has the constant nudge from your peers to give them a couple of quid become like the constant nudge from charities? Yes of course I want to stop that girl freezing to death or being trapped by poverty and yes I want to support independent film but - please - guys - enough...?
For the record I think it's a mistake to lump artists on Kickstarter together with charities. Donating to a charity is a genuinely altruistic act (unless you're giving to the Dog's Trust for fear of being mistreated when you get reincarnated as a grey hound). Supporting an artist on Kickstarter is a commercial transaction. It sends the same message as buying tickets to see a film in a cinema.
I disagree with Maria Miller when she says art needs to justify itself economically... however it does all of us no harm to show that it can.
The internet offers us an amazing way to break the cycles that keep artists and filmmakers away from creating their work. When Shooting People was founded it was because Cath and Jess saw they could use the power of the net to bring creative people together. Now Kickstarter and other crowd sourcing platforms enable us to engage economically, to create our own market place.
If you want to make a living out of making films it is important that you support that market place.
Now tell me why I'm wrong.
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12 years, 2 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin
Blimey Ben, your post sounds a bit like 'you all owe me' - probably not the tone you intended to set?!
I get what you're trying to say - if the community here all gave to each others projects, it would mean more money in the system. However, there are already plenty of kickstarter appeals here, just think how many there would be if they were all assured of raising a few grand from the community. In fact SP would become a conduit for chanelling people to crowdfunding sites - not something I'd personally pay a membership fee for.
I think the problem you're hitting is similar to that of the Short Film Corner at Cannes - that people are appealing to the wrong demographic. In the SFC people spend a lot of time and money trying to get other film makers to watch their films - they should be appealing to buyers/backers/etc, however their promotional efforts to convince people who are also trying to get noticed is wasted effort. Everyone is 'selling', nobody is 'buying'!
Maybe another element is that film makers spend all their money on their own projects, ones that are personally important to them. Your project is very important to you, naturally, but less so to other members. And theirs to you also. If we all agree to give a tenner (or whatever) to each project, I suspect it'd be a zero-sum game, the cash would circulate, but we'd all be spending the money we raised backing other projects (less KS fees!!).
The business/charity question is an interesting one. If you have TV pre-sales, a minimum guarantee from a sales agent, tax credits or other vehicle for investor repayment, then yes, it's clearly business. If you're giving tokens for donations, it is more akin to donating a quid for a poppy in November than buying cinema tickets. I don't think people can really expect to have it both ways. Let's face it, most KS projects are never going to make any money, so are a lot closer to charity than business, if you get my drift.
Just a couple of thoughts - do any of them resonate? Or have I misunderstood your post?
Response from 12 years, 2 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin SHOW
12 years, 2 months ago - Ben Blaine
No one owes me anything, all I'm saying is that we owe it to ourselves to think and act more coherently and cohesively as a professional community.
I would never encourage anyone to attempt to finance their film purely from other filmmakers. I wouldn't actually recommend anyone attempted to fully fund a feature through crowd sourcing. My brother and I are doing neither of those things.
Independent films need to build an audience. Crowd sourcing is a risky but powerful way of bringing people inside your project. And whilst so far I've been agreeing with your points, just not the where you're pointing them, here is where I think you are very wrong.
People do not turn to Kickstarter purely to indulge their private passions... the very nature of crowd sourcing makes it the very worst platform to explore your own myopia. Building an audience for independent film is a general benefit to all independent filmmakers. Not that everyone who's supporting my film would necessarily go and see yours or vice versa but every person who gets excited by an independent film comes away more open minded for the next.
In an all-or-nothing system if I throw a few quid at an film no one else engages with then I've not spent any money at all. Presuming the creators are asking for a commercial sum then, even if a few thousand of us throw a few quid in, it will still fail without reaching a wider general audience. However if it does connect then together we've made a very cheap investment in our own future audience.
Which is a long winded way of saying that the people who want to see your next film have already pledged their money here: http://kck.st/10IiALw
Come join us dude.
Response from 12 years, 2 months ago - Ben Blaine SHOW
12 years, 2 months ago - charlie phillips
Hi Ben, from my experience, crowdfunding works well when you make an appeal to those who feel connected to you or to your subject, and that personal connection seems to come best from personal emails and targeted twitter and facebook posts.
It doesn't come so well from mailing lists and generalised messaging, and I think that's where the SP appeals to crowdfund perhaps fall down - you don't feel you're getting a personal message, and nor do you feel a personal connection to the project holder. That's not a criticism of SP, which is one of the world's most awesome filmmaker resources, but this seems to be how it plays out when it comes to crowdfunding - you're just another name on a bulletin. Yes - even you, who is comparatively well-known on SP.
Response from 12 years, 2 months ago - charlie phillips SHOW
12 years, 2 months ago - patrick astwood
Ben, I saw your campaign for your film and a few days ago and even then I felt it was optimistic of you to expect raise your full target. I thought your video and supporting statement were well presented, but I personally did not feel compelled to invest. Maybe you trod the line too finely between commercial campaign and charity appeal (unwittingly), as I think you did not demonstrate as forcefully as possible why this film SHOULD be made.
I think this is where a lot of filmmakers make a mistake with crowdfunding in my view. There is a sense that simply shooting a video, and telling us about how your great your team and actors are and how brilliant your script is, will be enough to bring the investment pouring in, but it isn't. Of course some individuals will respond to a campaign, but this is a very much a subjective thing.
I feel no obligation as filmmaker, or as member of the public, to support you, but make a compelling case that excites me or speaks to me personally then I'll get my card out. You're right that artists should not be lumped with charities , but there is something in the way that film campaigns come over on crowdfunding sites that makes me feel that filmmakers expect members of the public to sympathise with their vision instead of empathising with it. And there is a big difference.
Work backwards from the premise that no one gives a do-do about your film and then you will be someway to understanding arts funding, people and the film industry. This leads to my final and perhaps most fundamental observation, that your Kickstarter campaign failed strategically. You may yet rally and make target. But I still think it was a mistake to target what is a significant sum of money on an 'all or nothing' crowdfunding site. Had you asked for half the amount, clearly you would have broken target, and perhaps could have shot a kick-arse trailer for a couple of grand, that would have done your talking for you, and taken a second campaign to the next level.
As a teacher once said to me, only those who treat filmmaking as first and foremost a business are destined to have a longterm career in it.
Response from 12 years, 2 months ago - patrick astwood SHOW
12 years, 2 months ago - Ben Blaine
Hey Patrick...
We are one day's filming from completing our film. Already our cast, including Fiona O'Shaughnessy, David Troughton, Cian Barry and Abigail Hardingham have given us some truly astonishing performances and our crew have helped us deliver a truly beautiful film.
It is an original, difficult script filmed in an unconventional manner. Nevertheless the project has already attracted enough of a budget to get us to the point of near completion.
Why did we structure our finances this way? Why get close but wait to cross the line? Because we realised early on that as an original, independent film we needed to build our audience from the outset. Engaging with key niche groups is an essential part of ensuring this film has a market.
Why the all-or-nothing approach of Kickstarter? Because that acts as a covenant between our backers, our audience and ourselves that we will only make this film if it is the very best that it can be. That's what we've achieved so far. That's what we're going to carry on doing. That's how we make a beautiful film make money.
Here is a teaser trailer we've cut together from some of what we've shot already. The music has been gifted to us for free by Amanda Palmer to help us raise the last part of what we needed. We didn't know her before this, but she inspired us and we reached out to her.
https://vimeo.com/65099193
I agree with you that filmmaking is a business. As with any business you have to know when to take a risk. The support, financial and moral that we've had from outside the uk film scene has been overwhelming. I think that says a lot about who understands business.
You can wait and see if we make it... or you can be part of it.
Response from 12 years, 2 months ago - Ben Blaine SHOW
12 years, 2 months ago - Daniel Cormack
@Ben Blaine
I watched your appeal with interest and overall I'm glad you reached your target.
The main reason I didn't contribute was because, as you know, there are more pressing demands on what little spare cash I have, but I did also have a nagging thought which is this:
Presumably, the total budget was higher than 18k and there are other people / organisations putting in money who have not been mentioned. I venture the thought that these people are putting in cash on an investment basis ie. they will expect to see a return on the money they've given you, whereas those who have contributed via Kickstarter will have no equity in the finished product.
Is it fair that some people's money buys a share in the film's success whereas others, who may be contributing exactly the same amount, have to make do with a mug or a JPEG? (I admit, I'm being reductive here).
Now for some people, I grant you, the perks offered may have value, but speaking personally I'm afraid I agree with the poster above.
These aren't personal criticisms as I think you've been quite imaginative and generous with what you've offered (although if I had contributed, I would have probably have told you to spare yourself the trouble and the cash and put the money on screen). Really it's a generic problem for Kickstarter style projects.
The hoops and regulations from the Financial Services Authority mean it is very difficult to ask the general public to contribute on an in investment basis - hence Kickstarter and its ilk.
In my opinion, Kickstarter works best when the project is a labour of love, rather than an investment as I presume yours is, and 100% funded on Kickstarter. So for example a group of animal rights activists might crowd-fund a documentary on the subject that has a purpose; a call to action, a desire to inform or something similar.
Your crowd is fellow filmmakers and I guess the potential problem is that, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, they might decide they would rather scrimp the pennies to help their own career, than help yours.
The fact you reaced your target is indicative of the esteem in which you and the potential of your film are held, so I think congratulations are in order on a well run campaign.
Response from 12 years, 2 months ago - Daniel Cormack SHOW
12 years, 2 months ago - Ben Blaine
Indeed yes! Dan is completely right. I'm so sorry everyone, there currently doesn't seem to be any notification system for comments on these threads. I've been off making films and stuff and literally had no idea that you were all here still talking - and thank you Dan (and Cath) for taking the time to let me know.
Forgive me.
At least, that is, forgive me if you ever bother to check back here. Which I can't imagine why you would.
On the off chance... erm... Allan, I'm not sure what point you're making except for confusing David's last post with mine. Those are not my exclamation marks!
I was going to use three there but even ironically it seems a step too far.
If, Allan, you are suggesting I in some way bullied everyone into supporting my film then I think Pete's response kinda answers that.
I do though take offence at you calling my supporters "mugs". I'm not sure why you think people would only support a film out of stupidity.
Clearly our campaign was persuasive enough to have worked, so as much as I would have loved Pete's wavering pound, and indeed the one in Allan's clenched fist, we did more than ok without you.
Charlie, forgive me, I missed the doc/fest campaign. Documentaries aren't really on my radar and I have been a little distracted. It's easily done, after all the song and dance I made about the Nina Forever Kickstarter I was quite surprised at how many people have approached me recently saying "Oh my God, I only just heard about your film, sorry I missed the deadline would you like some money..." which is nice of them.
If any of you still feel unsatisfied then please do ask more questions and I'll try to remember to look here. Alternatively message me via this site because that does come through.
best wishes
Ben
Response from 12 years, 2 months ago - Ben Blaine SHOW
12 years, 2 months ago - Ben Blaine
Hey Tim, if you don't think funding my film on Kickstarter is going to support the market for independent film then you do think that I'm wrong. I'd love to hear why you think this.
These are not donations. Even a pound buys you a finished frame from the finished film. Sure that may not be something you want, cool, but it's not a donation it's a purchase.
Filmmaking is a commercial as well as an artistic enterprise. It benefits every filmmaker to show that there is a viable market for our work. When the film is finished we'll be selling tickets, right now we're selling frames, we're selling props, we're selling our time.
You're right, you don't need to justify yourself as to why you don't want to buy a frame from my film... but turning your back on crowd funding is turning your back on something that can help you... perhaps you should think about why you want to do that...
Response from 12 years, 2 months ago - Ben Blaine SHOW
12 years, 2 months ago - Ben Blaine
Why not? I'm not begging for a favour I'm pointing out that as an artistic and business community we have a fantastic opportunity that we're letting slip by through pig headed indifference...
We should be supporting each other. There are 35,000 of us. If only a third of us gave a pound to every Kickstarter that was in the bulletins then that would give every active Shooter a tremendous platform to build on.
I'm not part of the SP hierarchy, at least, I have no say in what goes on. I've just been here for years and my role has always been to support other filmmakers and encourage them to support each other in turn.
For years the only way I could do that was to watch short films and shout about the ones I loved. I've slept in fields, in cars, on strangers sofas to promote the work of my fellow Shooter and if all of that has built me a platform from which to shout then I'm quite happy to shout WE SHOULD BE SUPPORTING EACH OTHER.
And yes that also means supporting me. So?
Post up a link to your project and I'll prove it to you...
much love
Ben
Response from 12 years, 2 months ago - Ben Blaine SHOW
12 years, 2 months ago - Tim iloobia
yes i have heard you are using Kickstarter - how could I avoid it, you post about it in every forum, i can't escape it like a line of chuggers on Tottenham Court Road.
Im not telling you you are wrong, as you pose that question in your post - I'm telling you that I don't respond well to this kind of approach to trying to ask me to give some money. your last post read like a trashy evangelical political speech from a bad US drama - an opinion i politely kept to myself until i read your post today and thought i would share that with you as you asked.
and no, I wont be donating a pound. and no, I don't think it will support the market place so the industry gets stronger. and donating is not a commercial transaction unless i want a load of worthless 'rewards' for my money - and i don't need to justify or explain myself. but yes, i am terribly tired of the way people use Kickstarter and make anyone who disagrees or questions its value or merits feel like some kind of pariah.
Response from 12 years, 2 months ago - Tim iloobia SHOW
12 years, 2 months ago - Daniel Cormack
Or it could just be that he's not visited the discussion recently.
These new discussion things are a bit tricky to navigate - sometimes you can't even find an old discussion and have to go back to the bulletin that linked to it to locate it.
Response from 12 years, 2 months ago - Daniel Cormack SHOW
12 years, 2 months ago - David Graham Scott
Good point!!
Response from 12 years, 2 months ago - David Graham Scott SHOW
12 years, 2 months ago - David Graham Scott
@Ben Blaine Ok Mr B...must admire your tenacity for sticking in there. It just seems a bit like biting the hand that feeds you. It looks like your project will make the funding goal the way it's jumping up with donations. Just how do you know whether much of that funding is coming from shooters or their friends though?
I really didn't expect much from shooters but thought I'd post my crowdfunder a couple of times anyway. In an ideal world it would be great if we all got more supportive of each other but I just can't see that happening. I think there were very few filmmakers contributing to my project. I had low expectations I guess and kept my funding goal low at £6000 which was a mistake as I've hit that already. Now I'm going to miss the urgency from last minute donations trying to make up the shortfall. Ahh well, I guess we learn from our mistakes and at least I have enough to pay the editor and sound dubber.
Anyway, I think you're going to make your goal so don't worry. I liked your £1 appeal the other day and that's why I gave something. I just thought this one today looked like sour grapes.
All the best anyway.
My crowdfunder is at: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/help-fund-iboga-nights
I was banking on support from a vast amount of contacts who knew me from the prequel documentary.
Many regards
DGS
Response from 12 years, 2 months ago - David Graham Scott SHOW
12 years, 2 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren
My few pennies worth go like this - I see Ben as someone who has supported SP and filmmakers in general for a long time now. He was doing it before I joined, the first time, and he's still doing it now. He has a little right at least, to expect or assume, that SP members could be interested in supporting his movie as he has given so much to them already. I'm not a disciple.... lol, just a fan of his efforts and work. Throw the man a pound or two! I dare you.
@wozyW
Response from 12 years, 2 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren SHOW
12 years, 2 months ago - Peter Butler
Hey Ben,
I saw your post and thought I'd give a pound...but I didn't.
The reason for me was simple.
It wasn't that I felt your approach was blunt.
It wasn't that I didn't have a pound to spare. Honestly if someone doesn't have a pound to spare I can't see how they have enough cash to actually be posting on a website.
The reason for me was that you had nothing in the post that enticed me.
I was going to go to Kickstarter and donate but I had things to do and thought, actually this will take a few minutes and I don't actually know much about this film at all, it might be rubbish?
So it came down to the fact that you hadn't shown me something interesting. There may have been a link to your blog or website, I can't remember.
But if you had embedded a trailer, or even a poster it would have helped. Then if I liked what I saw I would have been willing to give up those couple of minutes to donate.
I'd like to see what you've been up to. I clicked on the Vimeo link that you posted above but it has a password. If you can send me a password I'd much appreciate it.
Good luck with the film.
Peter
Response from 12 years, 2 months ago - Peter Butler SHOW
12 years, 2 months ago - Dan Selakovich
Ben, the reason I didn't give you that pound is simple: you asked too late. I live on a very solid budget. When I was making tons of cash, I didn't, and am paying the price now. I set aside $100 bucks a year for this sort of thing, and that went to a friend's film here in Los Angeles (he got the whole thing because, damn, I owe him). I don't really agree with the negative answers here. Either we support each other, or we're screwed. I mean, who else is going to give us cash? I hope your film is frighteningly successful!
Dan
Response from 12 years, 2 months ago - Dan Selakovich SHOW
12 years, 2 months ago - Jane Hamer
I gave weeks ago Ben, was happy to when I saw a link on twitter and loved it. (And I haven't a pot to pee in most weeks) So I think David's right, and I doubt most were ignoring you. I had no idea you were on here as I've only recently joined and I'm mad busy so I'd imagine that's the same for a lot of shooters. It's probably just a case of finding time to check out what's going on for everyone else. I'm only just finding the time to navigate shooting people in between doing my own stuff.
I didn't see your original campaign so can't comment on that.
Anyway, it looks really good so all the best with it.
Response from 12 years, 2 months ago - Jane Hamer SHOW
12 years, 2 months ago - charlie phillips
I contributed to the campaign, Ben, I think you're great and despite disagreeing with you doing the post above, it worked really well, so hey what do I know?
I'm not sure I remember you contributing to our Doc/Fest campaign when we did it, and I suspect you don't contribute to all the crowdfunding appeals on Shooters, so I'll be interested to track to what extent you and others on here advocating for us all supporting each other (which I agree with 100%) continue to do so for those with a lower profile on SP than you.
Response from 12 years, 2 months ago - charlie phillips SHOW
12 years, 2 months ago - Ben Blaine
Bless you Dan. Though watch out for me ringing on January 1st 2014 to try and claim my hundred bucks ;)
And Charlie, yes I agree with you.
Response from 12 years, 2 months ago - Ben Blaine SHOW
12 years, 2 months ago - Jan Caston
5.5.13 - I pledged my pennies but not without extracting a 2-way street promise from Ben to return the compliment by promoting my very serious kindle book Amazon - Living with Cancer - The Year When Even The Dog Got Cancer by Jan Caston.
Ben knew me from previous SP discussions, immediately endorsed me on Twitter and hey presto - 2-way street satisfied - I sell more books for charity/Nina Forever edges closer to its target.
It's all about building connections and being generous in this business.
DO IT! Ben and Chris are two of the rising stars in film and they are good guys. Check it out and then PLEASE SUPPORT THEM!
HOWEVER:
I'm doing the same at the mo for an Australian project facebook.com/IamEvangelineTheMovie through Pozible.
I would say Pozible is much easier to use than Kickstarter - cleaner site, less 'in your face'. There's less desperation in it all. I wonder if that's part of the problem - we all sound so bloody desperate asking for other people's money.
ATB Blaine Bros - this is one good project.
(And I've never met them!!! But I can use my knowledge of the business and professional judgement to assess them - think about it).
Response from 12 years, 2 months ago - Jan Caston SHOW
12 years, 2 months ago - David Graham Scott
Bloody hell Ben. I threw some cash your way. How can you possibly know if Shooters are ignoring you? There's nothing on the Kickstarter page to say how the contributor is affiliated with you.
My own posting is in SP today, on the documentary bulletin. I really don't expect much from other struggling filmmakers wanting to get their own projects funded but it was an opportunity to advertise the fact I'm making what I consider a worthy documentary...ie a potential cure for drug addiction.
Perhaps I'm reading your posting wrong but you are obviously part of the SP hierarchy and shouldn't blast shooters for their seeming indifference when they see someone post from that privileged position.
Response from 12 years, 2 months ago - David Graham Scott SHOW
12 years, 2 months ago - charlie phillips
Hello! Yes, this discussion area is v hidden, so no problem about not responding.
I'd just say that going forward, anyone who\s done a campaign and shouted about it should be really on their mark for looking out for others' campaigns and practicing what they preach - I"m tediously conscious of that.
And that doesn't mean waiting for someone to post about it on Shooting People, but being regularly involved in looking out for projects to support.
This isn't a dig at you - no problems with you - more a general comment
Response from 12 years, 2 months ago - charlie phillips SHOW
12 years, 2 months ago - Allan (Mac) McKenna
I think the moral here is 'shout loud enough for long enough and enough mugs will be bullied into getting you a result'. The depressing thing is I've a horrible feeling it might work. Mind you, it's all consistent with the kind of business we're in. Ben's final comment says it all - lots of exclamation marks and an a 'shouted' conclusion in capitals - END OF STORY!!! No it isn't mate. And shouting doesn't make you right. (A last thought - and on a quite different topic) I always feel the tendency - quite widespread it seems - to use capitals and exclamation marks is somehow associated with a sort of dyslexia. I could be wrong of course, and also nothing wrong with that! (exclamation mark)
Response from 12 years, 2 months ago - Allan (Mac) McKenna SHOW
12 years, 2 months ago - charlie phillips
Hmm, now he's got his money, I think Ben might have lost interest in this discussion.
It's difficult keeping up the contact after the campaign ends, I know from experience, but if we really are to get a mutually-supportive comumunity then it needs to continue post-campaign too.
Response from 12 years, 2 months ago - charlie phillips SHOW
12 years, 2 months ago - David Graham Scott
The Blaine Bros put their money where their mouths are!! They contributed to my own crowdfunder!! That makes them great people...END OF STORY!!!
Response from 12 years, 2 months ago - David Graham Scott SHOW