ASK & DISCUSS INDEX

9 years, 3 months ago - Marlom Tander

It sounds almost as though you hope to make a living at this :-)

If that is the case your starting point has to be NOT telling people's stories, but WHAT stories could YOU be paid to tell, and WHO is likely to pay you to tell them.

Seriously - you re about to start a new business, and all businesses start with a simple question - "Market?"

Having understood the market, can you access it with skills that you have, or can invest in getting?

If that makes you uncomfortable, this is either a hobby, a bucket list "few months commitment to doing something I've always wanted to do" , (the way some people row the Atlantic or cycle to China), or some other "absolutely NOT a way to make a living" exercise.

Good luck.

9 years, 3 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Marlom puts it strongly, but much in the same way as most people don't go from zero to a living in a few months as lawyers, doctors, teachers, database developers, ironmongers, fishermen, etc., there will be a significant period of learning the ropes and getting started!

Hard working counts in your favour, but only if you know what to work hard at. There are busy fools out there, putting huge amounts of work into non-productive directions. Learning which directions to invest your effort into is essential, and that means partly learning from others, but then finding your niche and style. It's all by repetition and proving you can deliver the goods.

If a film takes 6 months to make, sells for £20k, with £10k of costs, that's a living. It's also a huge gamble being able to guarantee films back to back, and getting commissioned to make them (or self-financing and hoping for a sale). This is very rare.

Documentary costs can be a lot lower than drama, for sure. Broadcasters are well aware of this and don't pay well unless you're sure to bring in eyeballs. Channel 5 do a lot of 'formatted documentary' (reality) programming to fill their factual slots. Following dramatic jobs (debt collector, for instance). Things with '... from Hell' (actually that's ITV, but you get the idea) in the titles - documentary made by the yard for low cost. Discovery like a bit of false jeopardy with 'Fast and Loud' (will the car be finished in time for the arbitrary deadline?) or even questionable subcultures 'Amish Mafia' as long as it has plenty of soap opera drama and 'reconstructed scenes' *cough*. Quality documentaries get a higher price, but with very few slots.

It's a VERY hard way to make a living if you're good at it. For every Louis Theroux show there are a hundred or more trashy shows making their money from volume, personality and staged conflict and jeopardy.

What can you bring to the world on a regular basis that it doesn't already have/wants more of? Find that niche and make good TV (or at least get it technically competent and learn how to manufacture jeopardy efficiently), and you'll make a living, but I suspect you may find the first few years whilst you learn your trade quite hard on the wallet. I'm not trying to put you off, instead I want you to not fall at the first fence and realise it's a long road and pace yourself accordingly. Maybe go part-time, maybe get a bar job, plan now to find a way to keep the money flowing as an overnight transition represents an enormous risk very likely to fail. And you might be the next Adam Curtis or Louis Theroux or telling stories the world needs to hear - and that's a great goal. I wish you every fortune.

9 years, 3 months ago - Ken Kenderson

Marlom, Paddy / thanks for your advice. Truly appreciate it.

While I'm aware that it will by no means be easy to make a living at this, it's easy to overlook the real difficulties so I'm grateful for you being honest about it.

I'm fortunate in that I have alternate sources of income which will give me some freedom and time to learn the ropes...my main difficulty is finding a starting point.

If you can point me in the right direction, it'd be much appreciated.

How did you both get started?

9 years, 3 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

The best thing you can do is get involved with other documentary filmmakers. At the moment you don't know what you don't know, so don't know what you need to learn. Offer to carry cases, being a pair of hands on the ground. If you can't find a documentary maker who'll take you, volunteer as an unpaid intern for any production you can get onto. Get involved, and you'll start realising what you need to learn and where to focus.

At some point you'll launch into your own project and may call in some of the favours you've done people. Start small and work up. All beginners films are too long, every time. Your first project might be 10 minutes shot in a weekend, but that 10 minutes might make a great 2 minutes. Then you have a calling card to try getting some paid work.

In TV world, you could start as a runner and work up through researcher roles, but you're making someone else's show, and it might be awful. https://youtu.be/NIyg2a72uV4 is a 4 minute guide to that...

But those are just some random thoughts, don't take them as anything more than that. You might find a short or long course that inspires you, you might go to docfest and meet a mentor, there is no one right way. The fact that you have independent means is by far the most important factor in your success, as it means you can afford so stubbornly keep at it until it falls into place.

How did I start? I did a week of work experience in the 1980's at Central TV and fell in love with the fact it's all illusion. I saw the desk used for a game show, front covered with carpet, back was plastic chairs on bare chip board buttons recycled from a fruit machine. The carpet line on set ran to exactly the edge of shot and not an inch further. They shot 5 episodes in a day. I'd had a peek beneath the covers and feel in love. I ended up studying an engineering degree, then worked in IT, trained as a pilot, had a varied life, and ended up returning to entertainment in film. Many miss-steps along the way, but doing OK now. I can't suggest my path as it's unconventional, but you'll find a lot of unconventional paths at the higher levels of showbusiness. You'll become your own story, but it'll take time.

9 years, 3 months ago - Mät King

Ken,
Make something. No matter what. Then make something else. Repeat.
Making a start on something is infinitely better than an eternity surfing looking for a the perfect starting, or jumping off point. Momentum is a fantastic thing; once moving don't stop. Whatever you do don't get caught in the fantastically attractive analysis by paralysis mindset, or obsess about the latest "gear" both of which common to many on forums. Good luck and just make something, interview someone, film some 'B' roll. Just do something; make a film even if it's a minute...

9 years, 3 months ago - Dan Selakovich

Ken, surely there's a documentary filmmaking community in the U.K. I took a look at the British Council, and found these:

http://film.britishcouncil.org/resources/documentary

Join some organizations and get with like minded people. Also, start making your own, as Mat suggests. Take a look at

http://nofilmschool.com

They have a tutorial on documentary editing that's pretty good.

Just start making short docs. There's a guy on youtube I watch who makes little 3 minute films of Tokyo street life. While they are not documentaries in the strictest sense, they might be something you could copy for London. They are simply nicely composed shots of street life in Japan. Why not start there? You could learn composition and editing. This guy's films are simple and often beautiful. (My only complaint is that they are too short). He has over 6k subscribers, and that's not nothing. It might be a good place to start, because it is just going out and shooting without anything specific in mind. Here's an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4RToD2M8SU

Good luck with it all.

9 years, 3 months ago - Marlom Tander

I would always suggest jumping in an announcing yourself the go to FREE community video guy - gigs, clubs, local politicians etc. If it's in focus, framed and you can hear the audio everyone's happy. Aim for volume and you'll get good at working fast, with people NOT interested in being in front of the camera, working in awful shooting (light and sound) conditions, plus develop quick and dirty editing skills to bash them out. Work to a "magazine" workflow - rendered within 48 hours of shooting.

All these skills will be essential once you do try something bigger, and by being second nature, allow you to focus on the project at hand.

9 years, 3 months ago - Ken Kenderson

Incredible advice all round and informative links, so a big thank you to you all.

It looks like there is no 'right way' to get into this field but that there are many important steps that can help a novice get started.

So to Dan, Marlom, Paddy and Mat - a big thanks.

And if you're in need of an extra pair of hands, feel free to get in touch!

9 years, 3 months ago - Philip Carr

Looking to start a project soon and happy to meet up in London to have a coffee. Are you interested? my mobile: 07789070736