Ask and Discuss |Shooting People

11 years, 9 months ago - Dan Selakovich

Nena: yes, you are now a sag signatory forever. BUT under the corp. structure that currently exists. There is no reason why you can't develop another corporation under a different name and be rid of that agreement if you wish to. But for initial release, you're ok with SAG. It's when you go to sell it to territories around the world that you can really get screwed. If you're lucky enough to win some festivals, possibly keep the U.S. rights, then give an international distributor world rights.

If you're going to distribute the film yourself, be careful. Not that I don't think it's a good idea. Most distributors SAY we'll open your film in 2 cities, then slowly expand as the film picks up speed. They are not being truthful. They'll open in L.A. and NYC, but then quickly try to exploit other markets like DVD. That's all bullshit. I could easily 4 wall a film in 2 cities for christ sakes! There are only 2 ways I'd deal with a distributor: a 5 city release, minimum. Or a buyout. If they give me enough for a nice profit on a buyout, I'd take the money and run. Let them deal with SAG and everything else.

But here's the problems with self distribution: Piracy. Make damn sure you keep your film in your tight little hand. Another shootingpeople member had his film uploaded to a torrent site by a FESTIVAL. Paddy and I came up with the idea of hiding the name of each festival in each dvd you supply them (perhaps using afterefx to put "Sundance" on the spine of a book somewhere in the background for a few frames). That way you'll at least know who did it, and sue the shit out of them. If a distributor finds your film on a pirate site, it doesn't matter how good it is, they won't touch it.

Piracy has killed the DVD market; where most films move into profit. You have to be really careful. No screeners for the cast and crew. If an actor wants it for their reel, just give them a couple of scenes, not the entire movie. Don't count on Netflix either. Netflix pays indie movies peanuts: around 1500 dollars for a year of streaming. If you keep the budget low enough, iTunes and Amazon have been a boon for indie films. There are quite a few that have even made a profit (hope you have 3000 facebook friends).

Response from 11 years, 9 months ago - nena eskridge SHOW

11 years, 9 months ago - Dan Selakovich

@nena eskridge regarding distribution: I have no idea! I'm old. I worked for a lot of distributors through the years, and that old paradigm is near gone.

But having said that:

You might be surprised at what a distributor will buy. Especially international ones. I've seen some awful films sell for more than the budget for world wide rights (excluding USA). But you have to be careful about telling people your budget. If a distributor knows how much it cost, they'll low-ball you. If anybody outside your crew asks, your budget is "under 500,000". That answer used to be "under a million." But times have changed! Never tell anyone your budget!!!!

Unless your low budget is really low, it is not a selling point. robert rodriguez first film cost 7,000. Although that's big fat lie, he was able to market it based on that. But typically, there are 4 budgets in Hollywood: Under a million. Under 10. Under 20. And the most expensive movie ever made.

NEVER TELL ANYONE YOUR BUDGET.

What do you mean by "Local PR"? Philly? Get a PR agency that does marketing for FILM for a living, no matter where they are. And hire them just before you start shooting. Not after it's done. Also, make damn sure you have a stills photographer on set. It's a huge mistake many make.

Now is a good time to understand what "deliverables" are when it comes to a distributor. Know going in what you need to turn over if you sell your film outside of the U.S. Deliverables can be vast and complex. Knowing what you need before you start pre-production can save you a lot of headaches later.

Please don't underestimate a sale for international distribution. It can save your bacon. And who knows, it might be a huge hit in Turkey.

And finally, why are you not afraid to 4 wall it in the real world, but are handing it over to an on-line distributor? There are not that many outlets, outside of pirate sites, for a feature film. Why not do all that yourself? I would not let it go on-line at all until you've hit up all the international distributors first. You'll kill any chance at an offer if it's found on-line.

Response from 11 years, 9 months ago - Dan Selakovich SHOW

11 years, 9 months ago - Dan Selakovich

@nena eskridge Well, you do have to tell any prospective PM your budget. But you know that already.

Here's the rub: you can't make a low budget film without experienced people in key positions. But how do you get those people without money? But inexperience will cost you money, too. A lot more of it than hiring the right person in the first place. Remember, I saved movies for a living. This is how all bad movies start: bad people.

Traditionally, you get good people by giving them a "bump up." For example, a 2nd AD with a lot of experience as a 2nd, might do the job for a lot less if he's getting experience as a 1st AD. Or a first AD that wants a career switch to a Production Manager. The worst mistake you can make is hiring someone just out of film school. Film schools don't teach real world, and they certainly don't teach real world low budget filmmaking. You're shooting SAG: how many film school graduates know that contract? Your AD better. The ULB agreement doesn't let you out of meal penalties, health and pension, etc. The DGA has a training program that is awesome. Maybe you can find a DGA trainee that will do the 1st AD job for crumbs. But that's still a gamble. But who knows, maybe, just maybe, you can find a producer of many, many, shorts that is golden to act as PM.

The sad fact that to pull this off, you've got to have experienced people that can guide the ones that are there for the screen credit. So you've got to pay them at least something. Add to the fact that you're shooting in a place that is not a filmmaking hub. You're going to have to put them up, feed them, etc.

Have you done a proper budget? By this I mean, if you had all the money in the world, paying for each locations, union rates, a decent shooting schedule, how much would it cost? Then for a 2nd budget, start trimming. What locations are free? If they're not free, time to rewrite. Are you getting a deal on equipment? No sound house will do your post for free, but you might find a deal. But a deal is still really expensive. Is your shooting schedule on the first budget 48 days? There's no way to trim that to 10. There is only so much trimming you can do. You can't turn a 30 million dollar picture into a 100,000 dollar picture. Before you hire anyone, you've got to do a schedule, then budget based on that schedule. And before you can do a schedule, you've got to story board each scene. A 10:1 shooting ratio takes a lot longer than a 5:1. You have to have some idea before you can talk to a PM intelligently about the project. And we can see bullshit from a mile away. If you don't have a clear idea about EVERYTHING any good prospective PM will run in the other direction. And if you don't know something, tell them you don't know. That goes a lot farther than bullshit.

What you're doing is called a reverse budget. You've got this amount of money, now how can we make it for that? The Roger Corman way of working. But that way of working takes a huge amount of experience. As a first time director, that's not a good way to go.

Do a schedule and budget now, before anything else.

Response from 11 years, 9 months ago - Dan Selakovich SHOW

11 years, 9 months ago - Daniel Cormack

PS. If SAG's agreement can actually compel you to pay out more than you've actually received, as Dan implies, you have to ask who is actually being exploited.

Response from 11 years, 9 months ago - Dan Selakovich SHOW

11 years, 9 months ago - nena eskridge

Dan, thanks so much for your amazingly helpful response! it was so refreshing especially since yesterday was a really bad day. i've been in ultra low budget, non-union production for many years (by that i mean i'm not young and naive).this is my first union as writer/producer and dealing with SAG is driving me insane. i'm all about following the rules and not taking advantage of anyone, especially actors, but I can't figure out how to make it work as a SAG production and i really really a SAG film. which brings me back to original issue... ABS payroll is the service I will be using. a SAG rec. worked with them before on a short and they were great. but this time around we're talking about a $30K deposit and suddenly i'm paranoid.do you know them?

Don't understand how you as an editor know so much about production but I'm glad you do. i'm trying to figure out what my distribution options are if I sign an ultra low budget contract. i have a ridiculous budget of $80K but have enough in-kind services to actually make it doable with pretty good production value. Anyway, after an hour long conversation with my ent. lawyer i've just learned that thanks to SAG restrictions there really is no way to dist. an ULB film in a way that one can possibly recoup family/friends moneys not to mention my own. are you aware of this? is everyone except for me?!

we will shoot in Philadelphia next year. I have a terrific editor on board but you never know what the future holds. I'm still hoping/looking for more financing. I can't imagine you're interested in no budget projects, but I'm love to see your reel.

thanks for letting me rant. i somehow feel pounds lighter. Nena

Response from 11 years, 9 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin SHOW

11 years, 9 months ago - Dan Selakovich

Yep, Nena, the ULB agreement is bullshit. There's this nice little clause:

“The Ultra Low agreement is not intended for pictures produced for television broadcast, cable use, video/DVD markets or otherwise produced primarily for commercial exploitation.”

In other words, you can make a film, you just can't sell it. The ULB SAG agreement considers ANY release a theatrical release, and they get residuals from the GROSS of any money it makes. AND they get paid first. Before you, your Aunt Mildred, or any investor.

But let's say you get that theatrical release for real (99 percent of films made don't) Then you're kind of OK. Because of the basic agreement (which you also have to sign), there are no residual payments for the initial release. BUT for anything else like DVD, VOD, a download, television, cable etc., you have to pay 5.4 percent (more or less) to SAG based on GROSS. And keep in mind, you are taking the crumbs the distributor gives you, so paying a percentage of gross can land you in the poor house. It's a shit sandwich, and you've got to take a great big bite. Do you own a house? A 2nd mortgage is coming just to pay SAG.

I'm well aware that I just contradicted myself: SAG considers any release under ULB a theatrical release, and you don't have to pay residuals on "initial exploitation." But you DO have to pay SAG from dollar one of any sale that is not in a theater. The ULB agreement is full of contradictions like that. Oh, and they own you forever. Forever is a long time.

I assume you've talked to SAG. How much of a deposit for residuals do they want? Even on a ULB, that deposit can be substantial. Easily a quarter of your 80 grand budget. Personally, if a distributor offered to buy my film outright, I'd take the cash and run. Let them deal with all the bullshit.

If it were my film, I wouldn't be a SAG signatory on any film under 200,000 dollars. (To be clear, I like SAG and want the actors to feel comfortable and protected, but damn, that's a shit agreement). You can still use SAG actors, but it's their problem not yours. Let me repeat that: If you say to Betty J. Hotkiss, a SAG actor, "I want you to be the lead in my movie, but it's not SAG" she will not turn down the role. She wants that part. SHE will deal with the union if trouble comes knocking, not you. IT'S NOT YOUR PROBLEM. Of course, you always have the option to sign the SAG Basic Agreement, no matter your budget. It's a little more forgiving, but you'll have to raise more money to pay the actors the SAG minimums under that agreement. Either way, there is no way on earth I'd sign the ULB agreement. Dealing with the Mob is easier. And don't think SAG will not come after you if you breech the tiniest clause. They will, and it's not pretty.

As for ABS, I've never heard anything bad. They've been around a long time, and tend to deal with small productions quite a lot. Entertainment Partners is the other big one, and probably is the most used by larger budget films. Since you haven't signed with SAG, I'm not sure why they want such a large deposit. If you were SAG signatory, that big chunk makes more sense. Did you ask them? Do they know your budget? Did they take a look at your budget and schedule (and not just the top sheet)? I'm not saying 30,000 grand is good or bad. I'd just want to know why, in detail.

As for me, 99 percent of my career is fixing films in trouble. I work uncredited under non-disclosure agreements (in perpetuity). Basically it works like this: the first cut of the film is done, and the producer realizes that he/she hired the wrong director or bought the wrong script, or usually both. Typically, once the director finishes the first cut, their contract is complete. So on this bad movie, everybody is fired, and I get a call. I determine what is needed to make the film work. Writers are hired to write additional scenes to fill the plot holes. I direct those new scenes, as well as pick up any other shots that are needed, then I re-edit the entire picture.

So why am I now willing to work on no budget films? Many reasons, but basically this; thanks in a large part to piracy, those 3 to 30 million dollar films that I worked on, no longer exist. Second, I'm sick of editing films in trouble. At first, quite an ego boost, but after 25 years or so, it's creatively numbing. Mostly newbie directors, editors, and writers tend to all make the same mistakes over and over again, and I'm sick of looking at them. Third, credits are like gold. Since I can't even mention what I've worked on, it's difficult getting work when you want to start at the beginning of a project instead of cleaning up somebody's mess. So I've decided recently to take any feature that I like, no matter the pay. Bad scripts, on the other hand, you gotta pay! As for a reel... I haven't had a reel since 1988. Besides, you can't tell squat from an editor's reel, or even a feature for that matter. You've got to know what the editor started with to properly judge them, and even then, maybe it's the director that's the idiot. Plus, it's pretty easy to fire an editor if he/she isn't doing the job--especially since digital editing came along--it's pretty easy for the next editor to be up to speed.

How is it I know so much? I've been around a long, long, time (started as a camera op on commercials in 1979). Besides, when you fix films, and deal with a lot of completion bond companies, you're basically a co-producer.

Response from 11 years, 9 months ago - Dan Selakovich SHOW

11 years, 9 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

In which case I'll butt out! One rare occasion where things are more straightforward in the UK ;)

11 years, 9 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

You're not happy with the vision of the director of the first 12pp, two years have happened so locations, cast, props and background details have shifted, how about a brief rewrite, recast and treat it as a new (non-union) project? Those 12pp will likely add say 4 days to the shooting schedule, but considering the legal and technical problems they'll save, that's 4 days well spent?

11 years, 9 months ago - nena eskridge

its sompicated with a SAG film. no only does it require withholding from SAG members wages producers must put up a double deposit (dont' ask). as for non union actors and crew according to strict regs it's eligle to 1099 any crew/actor who performs services onsite (set) for consequitive days. if that happens govt. considers them actually employees therefore withholding from pay.

11 years, 9 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Many accountancies will do a payroll run for you, perhaps your own accountant who you already trust will do? Out of interest, do you need to do a proper payroll? Most of your crew and cast will be legitimately self-employed so won't thank you for withholding taxes - you just pay on invoice and save a mint in fees.

11 years, 8 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Getting a PM oughtn't be hard if you're paying. They're used to dealing with all kinds of grief and will happily do so if they get paid to show up. It's the projects that offer the PM 'a chance to work with xyz up and coming young team' or whatever that are a bigger ask.

It's not a creative role, nobody cares who the PM was, there's no glamour and plenty of grief, so money makes the difference. A DoP/cast/director etc has some career upside, but can you name 5 famous PM's?? Exactly. And lower budgets are harder work than mid-range or better ones as you're often relying on begging favours and inexperienced crew.

Not saying you have to pay top dollar, but if you offer enough to more than cover their family/home expenses and assure them of a decent single hotel room close to set and a workable office base/space you will certainly get their attention if they've nothing else on. Creatives sometimes overlook the fact that you need a production office to manage a production effectively.

I can't emphasize the value of offering a proper hotel room enough - the PM will be working long hours (13h+) and if they're in the least like me, they'll want to decide when they have to be sociable and not. Staying on a sofabed in someone's granny's house 45 minutes away for a month isn't fair on anyone (including Granny!), and the extra 90' travel on top of 12-14h days is the stuff nightmares are made of. Clean, comfortable, private, own facilities, home life covered and you should be able to attract someone who will save you more than their fee in contacts and experience/know-how alone.

11 years, 9 months ago - Dan Selakovich

First, Nena, you've done a really smart thing by hiring a payroll company. You don't want the nightmare of dealing with unemployment insurance once the show wraps. Plus all the other issues of FICA, Social Security, etc. And for the crew that is non-union, dealing with payroll stubs that they have to supply for getting into the union. And for me personally, I HATE being 1099ed. As you point out, all it takes is for one crew member to call the labor board, and you're in the shit up to your neck.

There are only a few payroll companies here in L.A. that everybody seems to use. Where are you shooting? Who are you using? If they are a smaller company, I'd ask them for a list of producers/productions they've serviced in the past, and CALL them. Find a top notch Production Manager in your city and offer to buy them lunch in return for asking a shit load of questions about who they like and don't like. Do you have a production accountant? Who do they like? Some payroll companies will even recommend a production accountant they've worked with before. Be very wary of any company that hasn't been around for at least a decade. Payroll companies seem to go bankrupt at a really high rate!

Also keep in mind that a payroll company often deals with SAG residual payments if you're distributing the film on your own. Then there's the new Affordable Care Act (Obamacare). Since your crew are freelancers, your payroll company needs to know how this affects things, if at all. So if you're buying some sort of inclusive package with them, make sure you are using everything in that package. You don't want to pay for shit you don't need.

As for checking up, the first place to start is the Better Business Bureau.

And finally: are you shooting in L.A.? Need an editor? ;)

11 years, 9 months ago - nena eskridge

FYI... I've been in film bizz for many many years also, I am... ahem... a mature woman... Always no to low budget, and am primarily a writer with a experience in most areas of prod. I've sold screenplays but none have made it to the screen. This is my reason for deciding to make Stray myself rather than sell it. As mentioned, I shot the first 12 minutes and was not happy with the vision of the director I hired. Soooo, I'm going to direct it myself. We will shoot next May and I am heavy into pre-pro. I have around $75K cash with $150K or so in-kind services - camera and electric gratis, most of crew gratis, locations set, friends/family catering. I have full support of IFP (I'm award winning alumni) and other "friends" of product (name low budget producers). But NONE have been as helfpul as yourself, so thanks again. If you're at all curious you can always google me for more info... no IMDB for me. If you do, you'll find my successful Kickstarter campaign and the footage for Stray that I've already put together. Shit, I'm already a SAG signatory. What does this mean!?!? The full force really is just now settling in!

11 years, 8 months ago - Dan Selakovich

Couldn't agree more with Paddy about the PM. He needs a production office (hotel room) and not be staying on someone's couch. Keep in mind, that a good PM that works a lot can get you deals that will probably make up for his paycheck. Especially if he has done a lot of commercials. Commercials don't look for deals, so he could go back to that equipment house and say "I've done 10 shoots paying top dollar. How about a favor this time."

Something I find a bit worrisome is the student AD. But it is what it is. Doing a schedule (strip board) can be really complex. Something as simple as a company move in the middle of the day actually takes some experience to schedule. Does he have story boards or at least a shot list? Again, it takes some experience to figure time on a 10:1 shooting ratio vs. a 5:1. He is also scheduling for an inexperienced director. Is he taking that into account? Is it scheduled for a 12 hour turn around? Is he doing a reverse schedule (we have this many days, how do we fit it in)? Or a proper schedule (how many days will this take to shoot properly). If you're doing more than 5 pages a day, be prepared for a nightmare shoot. 5 is absolutely maximum for a first time director!

If I were you, have him do a proper schedule first. You can't start cutting days until you know how long it would take to shoot if you were taking everything into account and doing it properly. Then you'll know that you have some work to do if you're trying to do a 48 day shoot in 18 days. You'll have to re-write to keep scenes in the same locations if at all possible, or how to get a scene in one shot instead of 10.

If I can make a suggestion that I make to all first timers: try to keep your days to 12 hours or less. I've been fixing shit since about '87. There were only two day in all of those shoots that I went over 12. Usually 11 hours. I tired crew makes mistakes. It will take longer in the end if you work them to death. Plus, you don't want them falling asleep at the wheel driving home! Schedule really simple scenes for the first few days at least. The crew needs to warm up to the way everything is working, and mistakes are easy to handle then. Try to put heavy scenes in the middle. That way, your crew is most efficient. If you put them at the end, your crew will most likely be exhausted by then and they will not go smoothly.

And lastly: you are a WOMAN director. That can open a lot of doors. There are tons of organizations for women filmmakers in the U.S. They have grants, equipment, etc. Have you looked into that? Sony, I think, had help at one time for women indie filmmakers. Time to hit google! Perhaps you can even find a woman PM or an experienced woman AD that wants a bump up through one of these organizations. Take advantage of your gender now, because as you know, those advantages don't last long!

11 years, 9 months ago - nena eskridge

Damn it, Dan. I just paid my ent lawyer a lot of money to tell me the same thing about ULB but he didn't do nearly as good a job. THANK YOU!

I surely hope I'm not one of those that qualify as needing help already, I haven't even begun production... at least I don't THINK I have. So listen up... if you're still willing... Two years ago I signed an ULB agreement so that I could shoot the first act of my film (It's called Stray). I thought more money was on the way and planned to use the footage to reassure the potential investor... anyway, shot 12 minutes, edited it then the investor disappeared (surprise, surprise. not). Soooo, now I have the first 12 minutes of Stray shot and cut - it looks ok. But here I am two years later ready to shoot the rest of it. Sounds impossible but I think I can pull it off. Still have same locations, lead hasn't changed her look much yada yada... but it just hit me... I AM a SAG signatory, signed the damn contract two years ago! Does that mean I must continue the film as a signatory???? Did you follow that???? I think I might be freaking now....

11 years, 9 months ago - nena eskridge

Alright, thanks for ALL input! I've decided to stick with SAG and self-distribution. My lead actress has been with the project for years and I can't/won't walk away from our longstanding agreement. she's also an amazing actress, so there's that, too. that's my story, sticking to it, at least for today. again, thank you, for walking me thru this. now off to learn about distribution. eekkk...

11 years, 9 months ago - Parvez Zabier

I do agree with Dan, accountancy and payroll are both complicated....

11 years, 9 months ago - nena eskridge

Dan is so right-a frigging mess. But the biggest problem isn't paying actors what they deserve, which I'm happy to do, it's that they are paid residuals FOREVER and residuals are based on distributors GROSS, not net.

Daniel nothing you said is a stupid question. Quite the opposite. But I am set on working with a particular actress. She is SAG, she's young and would be a fool to do Fi-Cor at this point in her career. So I'm going to bite the bullet, go with SAG ULB and self-dist - all because I'm committed to an actress who is not only an amazing talent but also the co-producer.

11 years, 8 months ago - nena eskridge

Hi guys. I'm following your suggestions. I have all of my film equipment for free (a miracle). $150,000 worth. From genie to (1) Sony F5 and (2) Sony F3 cameras. Okay so they're not RED cameras but will suit my needs perfectly. All locations are free so far. And as you suggested Dan, I'm rewriting script to accomodate my budget. Family and friends will put up the crew and and cater. I have a student AD who will do strip board and will attend SAG tutorials before the shoot. I'm still looking for a professional PM. My hope is to offer this PM some pay along with a legit producer credit. Any advice as to how to approach this PM (exactly what to say) would be greatly appreciated. Dan you already mentioned that I need to be very careful not to scare the potential PM away with the set up I have.

I have known and have worked with my DP for nearly 30 years. He has producing experience as well and is also my co-producer. BUT SAG will be the thorn for both of us.

I've talked to SAG and my entertainment attorney again and again and have decided to stick with the ULB contract because I want to work with a particular actress. I realize that the film will, at best, end up being a resume item for the actors and I won't recoup my investment. I'm okay with that. Not thrilled, wasn't my initial plan, but I want to complete this labor of love before I hang up my dancing shoes. So be it.

Thanks so much for EVERYTHING. I hope you will continue to indulge me, because I have many more questions and I have come to depend on you!

11 years, 9 months ago - Daniel Cormack

I have to second Paddy's view: I have some pretty major reservations about BECTU and Equity's approach to ultra low budget films, but at least they are not on a position to enforce their views on those filmmakers.

Am I being stupid in asking why you don't just do a non-Union production? Martin Spence of BECTU hilariously tries to maintain, in Chris Jones' Guerilla Filmmakers Handbook, that there is 'no such thing' as a non-Union production, but in fact most very low budget films in the UK do not use the PACT / Equity / BECTU contracts. PACT's response to the UK Film Council's report on this end of the sector rather turns its nose up at these films and it's not surprising that most filmmakers in this budget bracket don't use their agreements as it makes no distinction between films under £2million whether it was made on a budget of £2million or 20k. Another problem is the paperwork and reporting expected on profits / revenues etc.

Is there some reason that compels you to work using SAG agreements? You can still give people a fair deal without having to give such a large cut of the gross which may even mean you are paying out money which never even made it into your pocket in the first place. I think we normally work on Producer's Net Revenues in the UK, but I guess the accountancy rules are stricter here (no 'Hollywood Accounting') and so it is less easy for unscrupulous producers to conceal or write-off revenue that is arriving in their account.

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