ASK & DISCUSS INDEX

10 years ago - Dan Selakovich

Just to boil all of this good advice down to the key problem in most scripts I read: lots of writers have taken these courses, book, et al. and are very good at sticking all of those beats into a script, but they are still bad. Why? Because those plot points, inciting incidents, etc. don't come out of CHARACTER. The writer shoves the character's actions into those beats with a sledge hammer. Those beats simply MUST come from what that character would do naturally, and not as part of a screenplay templet.

10 years ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Writers hate 'Save the Cat!', but it seems to be a part of the consciousness of script readers - the gatekeepers that filter the dozens-to-hundreds of scripts producers get sent weekly... As such, hitting those very prescriptive beats may be necessary to get you through the door.

10 years ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

@Rickardo Beckles-Burrowes
I think it's a mixed bag - write for pleasure or to find an audience and escape the constraints by all means - I admire people who can craft a layered story with deep characterisation within the constraints of a 90-110pp script. What a tough job to get right!

I don't think these formulas create better scripts, but I do think they create safer scripts, and when there's £1,3,5,10M on the line, safe becomes a big deal. Maybe by making a safe script the investors get a 10% premium, but they can churn that money. Taking a chance on a 50% or 100% or 1000% (or whatever )investors premium return (required for an investor to consider a riskier project), they may lose the bet, so have no money for the next project and be broke. Safe is really important, people lose careers if they are attached to a risky project that doesn't work out, so faced with similar projects where one is safer for investors than the next...

Then there's 'Pixels' - goodness only knows how Mr Sandler manages it.

10 years ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren

Only by inexperienced or unproduced writers!

10 years ago - Alève Mine

Peter, was that writer/director me? Sounds a lot like me. Well, been only doing nobudgets since, if that's any consolation.

10 years ago - Alève Mine

:) Well, the problem seems to be a widespread one.

10 years ago - Marlom Tander

2) Duh :-)

15) I really hate it when characters don't act true to their character. Total spoiler.

19) Second part, very true. I have been known to shout at the screen. (Though not when in a cinema, obvs, as British :-)

10 years ago - Peter Spencer

I had an offer on a treatment, and the producers asked for a 'Save The Cat' moment by page 6. Also I heard Jennifer Lee (Frozen) and Rich Moore interviewed by Jeff Goldsmith and he asked about this and they replied they used Save The Cat. And William Goldman writes that structure is everything. When I read most scripts by unproduced writers, the problems I see are: the idea is not very good, characters talk all the time and explain to the reader what is going on, instead of showing, characters have no shorthand, so a husband and wife who have been married for years will tell each other all about their lives when of course the characters already have this knowledge and would have no reason to talk like this - except to tell the audience. Characters talk at each other and not too each other. And the central characters are either reacted upon, or they solve things far too easily. Lastly they are just dull... For me, the biggest crime is all these courses convincing people that 'anyone' can be a screenwriter... I was at a course once and man who had been made redundant said: "I thought I'd give screenwriting a year" whereas I've always written through all kinds of personal storms and circumstances and whether the scripts sold or not. Too many of these people should not be writers at all... And here's a tale.... two years ago I suggested to a writer that she might write a smaller film, something that had a better shot at getting made and building a reputation rather than the $100 million epics, after all in recent years there have been some very noticeable cases of writer directors on great small films leaping to much larger films, and she replied: "I haven't got time to mess about doing small budget, I need to start at the top" so these courses give unrealistic expectations too. Ah well, they are keeping a lot of experts in work and off the dole I suppose....

10 years ago - Rickardo Beckles-Burrowes

Hi Paddy,

Thanks for the additional feedback. I've read the book and though I understand how widespread it is used in the Western (especially American) film market, I'd hope that any produced or unproduced screenwriter wouldn't just write by the numbers if they're serious about wanting a 'career' as a screenwriter full time.

10 years ago - Rickardo Beckles-Burrowes

Hi Paddy,

You hit the nail on the head in regards to the creation of ''safer'' scripts - didn't work out so well for the new Fantastic 4 reboot. And with Pixels I would bet he sunk cash into that one which has worked out shockingly well from a box office perspective. I'm not going to watch it however. Dross.

10 years ago - Rickardo Beckles-Burrowes

There's some good notes in this article. And I like their focus on character.

10 years ago - Rickardo Beckles-Burrowes

Hi Lee,

Thanks for your feedback and I would agree that when it comes to western mainstream film business it is the case that they expect certain formulas in place from produced and un-produced screenwriter's.

10 years ago - Rickardo Beckles-Burrowes

Hi Marlom,

Thanks for commenting. I agree with you r.e. the strength of the story elements and how they're viewed by audiences (regardless of the inciting incident placement) thereafter set against the business need of mainstream film business.

10 years ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

BTW anyone curious about 'Save The Cat!' - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Save-Cat-Only-Screenwriting-Youll/dp/1932907009/ref=sr_1_1 This is the book. It will divide opinions somewhat, is very prescriptive, but you'll probably still find it interesting.

10 years ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren

One key aspect of writing is being able to work with producers. If they want structure added, removing, amending or character traits and subtext changing - then the professional writer will work with the producer to GET THE FILM MADE....

10 years ago - Peter Spencer

Aleve no it was not you - I have not net you

10 years ago - Dan Selakovich

I'll just stick to Pixar's 22 rules for story:

http://io9.com/5916970/the-22-rules-of-storytelling-according-to-pixar

10 years ago - Marlom Tander

Things you never see :-

Courses charging lots of money about how to structure a novel to get it published and make money.

Courses about how to structure a poem ditto.

Structure smucture.

If your characters/plot/story are strong then no one will pay attention to details of structure and beats. Even if they want changes, it will be in terms of character, plot, and action. Yes that will mean changing the structure, but that's incidental.

IF someone says "we need some kind of crisis around page X" what they mean is "got bored". The fix is to stop them getting bored, and while the solution MIGHT be a crisis on page X, it's much more likely to involve rethinking a character or other story element.

Mind you, if the money is saying "we need some kind of crisis around page X" then a crisis they can have, (though I'd try and give them proper fixes first) :-)

10 years ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren

If you can't write in the way that the type of people who will be reading your script expect to see it - you're screwed...

Know your market and client base (readers, producers, agents, managers etc). Understand their needs, requirements and demands.

I've found that no matter how good the writing is or how well the characters jump off the page at you, if there isn't the sort of structure that is 'expected', even if you make a sale/option, the producer is going to hire someone else to rewrite the amends. You obviously can't!!! That's what he'll be seeing in you as a writer.

A-List writers, mostly, know what to deliver to their clients - and it's not a write-it-as-I-want mindset.

Jeez - this is an ongoing conversation that unproduced writers (mainly) have when having after listening to advice that maybe, MAYBE, was relevant 20 years ago....

Sit down with any producer who has consistently made films, successful films that is (meaning films that have been distributed) and most will want to see a particular 'structure' even if it's hidden by great writing.

I was working on a project recently that was budgeted at $12m and the financier, who was also a producer, made an interesting insight to the fact that he had recently received a script from an associate that didn't have a 'inciting incident' to get the story underway. It went in the bin!

Just a thought.

Wozy

10 years ago - Marlom Tander

Ok, let me elaborate, because actually I agree with Wozy, and my last para underplayed.

Write your script without worrying about structure. If it's any good, it will have one that at least some people will like :-)

If you can identify a structure that your target money actively seeks, then tweak to sell, natch. They'll be lots more where that came from.

But what I really do not like are all these courses and whatnot that seem to put detailed structure as the first thing that you look at. I think they prey on the dream of being a screenwriter.

Re "inciting incidents". Personally I can't imagine writing anything that doesn't have one. The first line of a poem, the first sentance of a novel or the first few minutes of a movie. You have to grab your audience fast to buy the time to do development. Your opening is what sells them the idea that if they bear with you, it'll be worth it. The reason it's an incident in a movie is simple, the audience is watching, not reading so narration/poetical grabbers don't work.