ASK & DISCUSS
INDEXShooting People, how about letting young editors edit?
9 years, 10 months ago - Dan Selakovich
Since my post about DPs went so well... (Sarcasm!).
I have a suggestion for our ShootingPeople Masters:
In these days of digital, young editors don't have much an opportunity to hone their craft. In my old days of film, we had 2 and usually 3 or more, assistant editors. Often I'll turn down editing jobs with no budget for assistants. But that's the way it seems to be going. I understand. It's a race to the bottom and ever shrinking budgets. But damn, I'm old, and keeping up on the latest work flows for digital is a young person's game (though I do try). But the downside to this, is that young editors don't have much of a chance to work with truly professionally shot (and covered) films. I would always let the 1st assistant cut a scene back in the day. And took time to answer any assistant's questions about why I cut the way I did. I think all of us owe the younger generation a bit of the craft as we go along.
This isn't a diatribe on why you shouldn't edit your own films, but if you're interested, you can read that here:
https://shootingpeople.org/discuss/view/063fed65c6b98257a0aeb2ac
This is more of a plea to Shootingpeople to set up a system for young editors to learn. Since the world is digital, it is nothing at all to let someone have a whack at your footage. Or several someones.
Back in 1978 (or maybe 79), my first script was nominated for the Sundance institute (in those first years, you had to be nominated). I don't say this to boost my ego, but in way of explanation (I didn't get in, if that helps). Anyway, I met for 3 beautiful hours with a Sundance Institute rep. talking about my script and the way things worked at Sundance then. It went like this: you polished your script with a big time Hollywood screenwriter for a couple of weeks. Then, you'd pick a scene to shoot. Some big time director would direct with big time actors and a big time DP, and big time editor. Then, they'd swap out one of those positions several times and reshoot the scene. You even got to be director one time around on your own scene. In the end, you got to see how your script was interpreted by different actors, or the same actors and different director, or how different editors would cut that one scene. Basically, every position was swapped out by the end of the day in several combinations. Pretty brilliant, if you ask me. Invaluable for a writer.
Which brings me back to editors. As a director, wouldn't you find it invaluable to see how half a dozen editors of all levels interpret your footage? Can you imagine how much better you'd become as a director with input like that? Look, you're probably seeing your film one way. What if there is a better way? When I work with actors, and I have for years now, I still get positively giddy when they do something I would have never thought of. I admire actors so much. A good actor can elevate things like you'd never imagine. A good editor can do the same thing.
So often here, I see young editors looking for films to cut. I really admire them. It takes guts to put yourself out there, just to get better.
I think I know what shootingpeople will say: "but they can just ask in the forums. Why do something special?" Because directors are looking for that one special person. Not six special people. Or ten. Or a dozen. The directors in this new section would have to have the guts to put their footage up for ANYONE that wanted to edit it. But can you imagine the possibilities of seeing your film 6 different ways? Not to sound like too much of an Angeleno, but that would be FUCKING AWESOME!
Anyway. Just a thought. It would be pretty cool though.
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9 years, 10 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin
Here's a thought - if anyone has a donor production short film where they're prepared to put all the rushes etc on the SP site, and aspirant editors can do their own edits/rehashes of the same source...then have those as showreels on this site. Refresh the source material maybe every 6 months for a different genre...
Response from 9 years, 10 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin SHOW
9 years, 10 months ago - Alève Mine
@Dan Selakovich That's interesting. How does that change come to be? Does it also happen for other roles? I don't suppose that happens for directors, actors (letting people in general dictate more, or more superficially, what to do), composers, DPs, does it? How about writers, do they get a growing tendency to co-write?
Response from 9 years, 10 months ago - Alève Mine SHOW
9 years, 10 months ago - Alève Mine
@Dan Selakovich thanks. Yes it seems obvious that the effect on the audience is essential. I guess the schools feel that it is embedded in the story structure and other teachings...
Response from 9 years, 10 months ago - Alève Mine SHOW
9 years, 10 months ago - Alève Mine
@Dan Selakovich thanks, we'll have to look into that.
Response from 9 years, 10 months ago - Alève Mine SHOW
9 years, 10 months ago - Dan Selakovich
Simon, that looks awesome! I hope we get to see it soon!
Good on you for handing over some of your footage to play with. I never did bump up to FCP X, either. I started using Lightworks as soon as it was available for the mac.
Response from 9 years, 10 months ago - Dan Selakovich SHOW
9 years, 10 months ago - Dan Selakovich
for some reason, I always think the U.K. is better at this kind of thing than the U.S. But no, I guess there are bad companies everywhere that try to take advantage of people. It seems to get any kind of experience at all, one needs a trust fund.
Response from 9 years, 10 months ago - Dan Selakovich SHOW
9 years, 10 months ago - Dan Selakovich
I can't! Not that they're not out there. Most TV editors I meet are in their 20s and early 30s, and they have the opportunity to work with top notch feature directors that do television to pay the bills. Of course, eye-trace is different for a small screen, but I still see feature like cutting on shows like Hannibal.
I'm sure there are some very talented young editors here on SP, but how do they prove it without a variety of genres to cut?
Response from 9 years, 10 months ago - Dan Selakovich SHOW
9 years, 10 months ago - Dan Selakovich
Good for her. I think older editors don't have that "It's all mine!" mindset, and are happy to let assistants cut a scene or two, especially if they ask.
Response from 9 years, 10 months ago - Dan Selakovich SHOW
9 years, 10 months ago - Dan Selakovich
@Alève Mine So many other creative roles don't take tons of other people's money. A writer can write everyday until they become good enough. Composers too (though film composing takes more technical skill to hit certain beats within the rhythm of picture), and they can buy any dvd and recompose their own soundtrack. An actor can train all of their lives under a coach if they want. A DP usually comes up through the camera department. Many directors come out of the editing department, and I've know quite a few that came out of being an A.D. (which is a different path where you start out as a P.A.). Many production sound mixers started out as a cable puller, to boom, to mixer. Quite a few gaffers I know started out as an electrician (though gaffers would make excellent DPs).
But nowadays, it's hard for everyone. Studios stopped making mid-range features, so that limits the experience everyone can get, and leaves television to fill those holes. Unions are more willing to work with lower budget films, and may eliminate many positions (like cable puller, or 2nd 2nd AD, or allow the teamsters to use fewer drivers). When I started, you could make a 5 million dollar picture, and you wouldn't even be on the union's radar. Now, if you have a million bucks, you'd better talk to the union first (at least in Los Angeles). Everyone is going after the crumbs left in the wake of the "digital revolution."
Because shooting digital can be so cheap, many directors make a bunch of shorts, then a no-budget feature. Though, I also think they make that jump too soon. If you do a crap 1st feature, it's not going to help your career, it's going to hurt it terribly. And young directors don't know what they don't know. I used to teach a seminar at NAB every year (NAB is the world's largest filmmaking conventions held in Vegas every April), called "Finding the Right Shot." Basically a lecture on camera placement. Without fail, there would be a group of people that would come up to me after the seminar and say something like "I went to four years of film school, and we didn't learn half the stuff you taught in 90 minutes." The amount of filmmakers that don't know about shared space and negative space between two characters is astounding, for example. Or the amount of directors and young editors that don't know how an audience sees a film... I find it amazing that audience psychology isn't part of every film school curriculum.
My rant is getting out of hand! So, to sum up, the ladder is still there, but it is up to the filmmakers to learn this stuff own their own. To hunt down good people, show them your film, and listen to what they have to say.
Response from 9 years, 10 months ago - Dan Selakovich SHOW
9 years, 10 months ago - Dan Selakovich
@Alève Mine I wish it were, Aleve! I think it's those audience understandings PLUS what's embedded in story that makes those truly great directors.
Response from 9 years, 10 months ago - Dan Selakovich SHOW
9 years, 10 months ago - Dan Selakovich
I know, Jessica. It's awful. I was offered a feature for the Lifetime network some time ago. They wanted to pay me less than I made on my first feature editing gig back in 1986. Needless to say, I turned them down.
It would be nice if you could get your hands on just one professionally shot scene with good coverage. I hope ShootingPeople can help you guys out. Surely they must have connections to a working director with a film that has already been released so people like you could monkey around with the footage.
Response from 9 years, 10 months ago - Dan Selakovich SHOW
9 years, 10 months ago - Simon DaVison
I run a youth film making course in Salisbury and I've just completed a feature film. I gave scenes/sequences to the 3 editors in the class and they loved working on professional material. In return I got some genuinely useful feedback and insights. Youth are very image savvy.
Technically it was no big deal as Digital is easily shared and swapped about. The main obstacle was that they flew about over FCX while I still plod with FC7.
Our film is http://www.5greedybankers.com/index.html
Coming soon!
Response from 9 years, 10 months ago - Simon DaVison SHOW
9 years, 10 months ago - Jessica Edwards
I'm glad you turned them down!Yeah, hopefully ShootingPeople will help me out (fingers crossed). When I first started looking for post production jobs, I was mortified by how bad some companies were! I was an intern for a company in Manchester, turns out all their staff were just interns so they didn't have to pay wages! I also had a job trial at Envy in London too, and they were VERY bad!They messed me around so much.
Response from 9 years, 10 months ago - Jessica Edwards SHOW
9 years, 10 months ago - Ian Boisvert
Dan: Can you recommend young editors who are FUCKING AWESOME?
Response from 9 years, 10 months ago - Ian Boisvert SHOW
9 years, 10 months ago - Andy Sowerby
I agree SP doing something would be a great idea as I found it hard at first too - having to do a lot work for free, whilst getting paid basically minimum wage at a post house, but I luckily found an experienced editor willing to take me on and let me cut which was great, she wasn't precious about the work and enjoyed sharing the process...
And here is something for some young people out there: these guys have released their video and audio stems for their very short budget film that could be fun for young editors to try out 'remixing': http://nofilmschool.com/2015/09/remix-short-film-complete-how-guide-all-video-audio-stems-free
Response from 9 years, 10 months ago - Andy Sowerby SHOW
9 years, 10 months ago - Jessica Edwards
I've just started out in post-production for a corporate company in London, after finishing university last year. I'm trying to get experience with narrative/story based editing outside of work. It's just so difficult since everyone wants people with experience, even if it's unpaid!
Response from 9 years, 10 months ago - Jessica Edwards SHOW