ASK & DISCUSS
INDEXTo which extent is film duration defined upon production deal?
10 years, 4 months ago - Alève Mine
At the end of the shoot of our latest short, I've been asked how long the final film will be. How could I possibly know? I know I'd look at the material and see how it can work. That's constraint enough. But the question pops up as to what happens in that regard in a large production. To which extent is film duration defined upon production deal? If predefined the duration is, then which strategies do directors and editors usually use to comply, apart from rewriting to obtain a given number of script pages maybe, which may be bad enough in itself?
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10 years, 3 months ago - Dan Selakovich
Thanks Aleve! It's nice to be back.
Yeah, after years of editing, my timing is pretty solid. It freaks producers out. I've even gotten calls to time scripts and nothing else. Which I reply "I'll time it for free if you let me edit." :( I've also done a bit of foley over the years, and the foley mixers comment: "you hit the exact same frame every time. We've never seen that." Which is pretty odd, because in real life, I have no sense of time whatsoever.
Response from 10 years, 3 months ago - Dan Selakovich SHOW
10 years, 3 months ago - Anatoly IVANOV
100% determined at the start, even before discussing a deal.
It depends on what you want to do and who / how you're going to sell to. Short film (under 20 minutes, film festivals, maybe specialized TV)? TV-film (TV slots are around 50 mins)? 01:30 (common feature size, theatrical / VOD)? 02:00 (large-budget or arthouse, theatrical / VOD)? 03:00 (mega-bladder-blockbuser, theatrical)?
Duration incurs budget and production time increase, exponentially.
Response from 10 years, 3 months ago - Anatoly IVANOV SHOW
10 years, 3 months ago - Alève Mine
Way to go! Let us know when it's done. No more answering random posts until it's done.
Response from 10 years, 3 months ago - Alève Mine SHOW
Response from 10 years, 4 months ago - Alève Mine SHOW
Response from 10 years, 3 months ago - Alève Mine SHOW
10 years, 4 months ago - Adriano Cirulli
"My script alone was 158 pages, and the financier told me they would give me the money to make the movie if I got it under 120 pages. So I just shrank the font and extended the margins, and then no one knew!" - Derek Cianfrance on The Place Beyond the Pines
Response from 10 years, 4 months ago - Adriano Cirulli SHOW
10 years, 4 months ago - Alève Mine
Thanks. That's bad news for the arts. "Hurry up with that love scene, we have to lose 10 more seconds!" :)
When looking at editing though, until now I never had (excluding my first randomly illustrated music video) any feeling that there would have been any alternative that feels as optimal given the material.
Sure, I'll find a way, always have.
Response from 10 years, 4 months ago - Alève Mine SHOW
10 years, 4 months ago - Alève Mine
This was the short in question: https://shootingpeople.org/watch/129669/nat#
And now it is in the top 10 for Film Of The Month here! PLEASE give it 5 stars for encouragement!
Response from 10 years, 4 months ago - Alève Mine SHOW
10 years, 3 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren
Shorts can be a different beast to that of features. The longer the short, rule of thumb is that the fewer the festivals that will take it. Lots of places take 10 min shorts. Less take 20 mins shorts. And hardly any take 30 min+ shorts. All for obvious reason. But this is something that will be determined before you shoot a single frame of film (video). Because your script, if written/formatted correctly, will tell you how long, roughly, the finished film will be - see Paddy's post above about page numbers etc.
Features tend to be 90-120 mins on the page and therefore the same, roughly, in the theatres. It's worth noting that when trying to sell a script, in Hollywood anyway, producers tend to expect a newbie to deliver around the 90 page mark. It can be a tell tale sign of lack of experience if the newbie writer delivers a 120 or 130 page script. And then typically will expect to see the font correctly sized and margins etc all correct. Another sign of a newbie!
If you feel you story can 'only' be told in 150 pages or so, or heaven forbid 200 pages, and your not with a top agency/management company, again in Hollywood, your script will go in the bin. It will show that you don't know the business well enough and they wont want to do business with you. Remember - first impressions count. Your not an auteur until someone else calls you one - therefore you are nothing but a writer and a writer with little to no credits. Reality check dude!
Bottom line, and I know I always harp on about this, but the script is the starting point for a lot of elements that need to come together during a film's evolution that can make or break it's success and yours as a filmmaker/writer/director etc... Get it right (excuse the pun) the first time and get the script written professionally.
My 2c worth.
Wozy
Response from 10 years, 3 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren SHOW
10 years, 4 months ago - Alève Mine
Making 2 different cuts is also something that I envisaged for a longform doc-like interview I did. But somehow the brain closes up when the first version is done. Turns to the next project.
Response from 10 years, 4 months ago - Alève Mine SHOW
10 years, 4 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin
As a crude tool, a page of (properly formatted) dialogue is about a minute on screen.
The deal, except for big stars and blockbusters, is 90-110pp/minutes for a feature. This is as much about pacing and storytelling as it is about getting 3 screenings/screen/night. Longer films mean fewer audience members per hour, means lower popcorn sales. That will very likely mean multiple rewrites, whole scenes cut, whatever it takes. If someone says 'great script, I want to finance it, but it's too long - lose 20 pages', you'll find a way.
Response from 10 years, 4 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin SHOW
10 years, 3 months ago - Alève Mine
Dan, you're back, we missed you man!
It could aslo say "Protagonist watches the sea for half an hour reviewing his life." :)
Luckily the available feature scripts are between 100&120 pages in their current state. Good to know the tricks for future projects!
Film must put so much pressure on everybody...
2 minutes is pretty precise at feature length. I should try the stopwatch. Thanks.
Response from 10 years, 3 months ago - Alève Mine SHOW
10 years, 3 months ago - Alève Mine
Emphasis on: as long as it sells. Better have a marketing budget. People seemed to love the talk I gave about my book on which one of my scripts is based. But I think I sold 2 in last few months. :) So let us know when yours is out.
A tip to get it made into a film: don't write the script, unless you know how to get it produced. So that there something in it for a book agent. Of course I'm saying this but I couldn't possibly let anyone else write my scripts...
Response from 10 years, 3 months ago - Alève Mine SHOW
10 years, 3 months ago - Dan Selakovich
Thanks, Adriano. Spinning plates in Hollywood. I don't know why. These things never amount to anything but wasted time. At this point, I just want to finish my novel instead of being bullshitted by outside forces!
Response from 10 years, 3 months ago - Dan Selakovich SHOW
10 years, 4 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin
Features are showbusiness, not art. That word 'showbusiness' is 1/3 'show' and 2/3 'business'.
Get the 100' cut right, maybe you can release the 'director's cut' in 5 years. Get it wrong, and you needn't bother, as nobody will ever see it.
Response from 10 years, 4 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin SHOW
Response from 10 years, 4 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin SHOW
Response from 10 years, 4 months ago - Alève Mine SHOW
Response from 10 years, 3 months ago - Adriano Cirulli SHOW
10 years, 3 months ago - Alève Mine
Anatoly, good to hear from you! Welcome here.
3 hours?? They present that in 2 installments?
Yes in the editing, in particular in a non-predefined, or nonlinear, order (like the docu-interview I did), the number of editing possibilities grows that way, and you really have to remember every clip available and play around in your head with what can be done. It gets huge fast. And the equipment needs more power!
And in the prep as well as the writing for feature, keeping the overview while working the details out is quite something.
And other such cost positions...
A bit like the difference between a startup and a large firm... Additional cost layers as one crosses various size thresholds?
Response from 10 years, 3 months ago - Alève Mine SHOW
Response from 10 years, 3 months ago - Alève Mine SHOW
10 years, 3 months ago - Dan Selakovich
HA! Thanks Aleve! I'm near the end of the final (6th) draft! I think nowadays a novel is the best way to get a movie made--as long as it sells.
Response from 10 years, 3 months ago - Dan Selakovich SHOW
10 years, 3 months ago - Dan Selakovich
Hi Aleve,
You should know a close estimate of the running time before you shoot. Typically, before you shoot, a script timing is done. Usually by the script supervisor. But as an editor, I've done them as well. I've never been more than 2 minutes off the finished film. Basically, the person that does the timing has a stop watch, and acts out each scene, imagines camera moves, how an actor might pause, etc. So if a scene times out to 2 minutes 18 seconds, that is written down as the time for that scene. Then you add up the times of each scene, and that's your estimated running time. Action pictures are the hardest to time, because the writer may just put "And all hell breaks loose!" You can see where the page a minute rule of thumb goes out the window on something like that.
A script timing was absolutely necessary when we shot on film. You'd use that timing against the shooting ratio to figure out how much film to buy, how long to schedule photography for each scene, etc. A side note: If a director blows his/her shooting ratio in the first week, they are not going to be director any more.
As for script length, you're fucked at 150 pages. Nobody is going to read that. But, let's say you have 130 pages and you can cut any more. Renumber the pages. So you might have page 55 and page 55A. Sneak that in in a few places until you get down to 120. You're good to go. I did this on the very first screenplay I optioned (it was 132 pages), so I know it works. Font size and margin adjustments don't work, really. The people giving you money read scripts day in and day out, and they'll notice any format change right away.
Response from 10 years, 3 months ago - Dan Selakovich SHOW
Response from 10 years, 3 months ago - Alève Mine SHOW