ASK & DISCUSS INDEX

12 years, 10 months ago - Shoaib Vali

Take this as a lesson and give him back everything and cut your losses now, (its a tripod, get over it!) the court and all will end up being expensive, waste of time and more importantly, it will not make you a better filmmaker, making more and newer stuff will make you a better filmmaker, you got many years ahead of you, so dont get bogged down on "one" video, you have another "hundred" coming up, see it that way.

12 years, 10 months ago - Shoaib Vali

oh, and make sure you do your paperwork next time! Every project teaches you something, this one taught you that you f***ed up on the paper work side of things ;) i might sound harsh, but i mean in the best way so dont take it personally.

12 years, 10 months ago - Shoaib Vali

Sorry Ned, but the principle was the fact that you didnt do the paperwork, the situation you are in, is exactly the cause of that. As independent artists, we are obligated to get ourselves covered in every possible way, and if we don't do that, it's only us to blame. You don't go skydiving without a parachute, get it? But I hope that the work you did, be worth the effort that is coming your way what with all the court cases and suing and all that. Sounds like a right headache to me, which will be lot less than working on a new project. I sincerely wish you luck, all the best in your pursuits.

12 years, 10 months ago - Ned Hussain

Why would i give all my work and footage away? It's not about just the tripod. Its the principle and the fact he wants my work edited alongside the RAW footage. He can easily credit it as his own Directing, editing etc

12 years, 10 months ago - Dan Selakovich

This is a mess. This answer is based on my experience in America. UK laws could be completely different. Guess you now know to get everything in writing. Basically, since no written agreement exists, there's not much "the artist" can do (unless he paid for equipment, etc. Not much detail here). But on the other hand, you did agree to do it unpaid. Equipment is your responsibility regardless of getting paid (unless the "artist" broke it, but it's still a different deal. You shouldn't withhold what you agreed to). Since he didn't pay you, you own the footage--more or less. You can't do anything with the footage, but you don't have to give it to him either. As for the 2nd video, if he agreed to pay you an amount, and hasn't, you are within your rights to not give him the edit. But if someone else shot it, you have to give back the footage. It's not yours. Your explanation is not all that clear, so it's a difficult thing to comment on.

12 years, 10 months ago - Elizabeth Obisanya

wow, contract , employment and copyright laws. although you did not have any written contracts a verbal agreement is still a contract, not a good one as each person has no proof of what was actually agreed and so can easily lie. anyway sorry the court would have to establish whether you were employed or contracted. if you were employed your employer has right first over your footage he would be joint owner of your copyright. If you wrote it or created without an employer then you would be the sole owner of the copyright.

What you could do is first invoice him for the broken tripod and tell him that he can always get it from the production insurance and or employers liability or public liability etc, if he does not have insurance he would settle you as he is required to have some basic insurance whilst in production.
If you were employed you could further seek for your unpaid pay that is outstanding.

12 years, 10 months ago - Bill Hayes

Really simple asnwer. He can take you to court if you owe him some money, but if you have a business dispute then you need lawyers involved and court time has to be booked. This could take months before it ever gets in front of a Judge.

If he can't afford to hire a lawyer if he can't pay you. Keep the footage until you are ready to give it to him. It's your copyright if you shot it.

Tell him to pay you what he promised or fuck off. Simple - this will never get anywhere near ba court - it's all bullshit.

12 years, 10 months ago - Ryan Hooper

What a mess. First things first, verbal contracts are legally binding, just very difficult to prove. He should have had PL, EL and Production Insurance if he employed you so your tripod should be covered. You have no rights over the older video footage if you did not shoot it but you do own the "edit" so don't have to give him the project file

With regards to the footage you shot, that's abit of a minefield, as if you we're employed, the footage is the artists, if not, then its yours.

I would advise that that you try your best to re-establish some dialogue. Neither of you are in a particularly strong position so if it goes to court it could be flick of a coin.

Try and broker an agreement, at least get the tripod fixed or replaced (you don't state if he told you he had production cover) and then finish the job, chalk it up to experience and move on always using contracts henceforth. I doubt his threat is anything more than posturing, or he's been given some bad advice because it would be risky for him to go to court. These issues have a habit of sticking around for years and my advice would be path of least resistance, get your tripod sorted and then never work with them again.

12 years, 10 months ago - Ryan Hooper

Also the requirement for him to have employers liability is arguable if you're self employed

12 years, 10 months ago - Ken Barnes

Since you've posted this on Shooting People and not 'Suing People' :-) you need to realise that whatever advice you get is not going to be certain, unless somebody really knows their legal stuff here. That goes for my advice as well. That said, I think you have two separate cases/oral contracts here, as you've recognised, #1 and #2. You shouldn't try to use one to leverage the other.

I agree with Ryan that it is in the best interests of everyone for you to re-establish a proper dialogue. Try to take the egos out of the equation, difficult as that can be when one feels 'right' or when nasty words have been exchanged. But it is the higher ground and can actually end up as a good experience if you can talk it out over a beer.

If that seems like some idealistic impossibility, then I would say you have a better case than the artist if you decide to make a claim in small claims court for non-payment of the full amount for #2 above. This can be done online for £25 fee, which he must pay if resolved in your favour. I filed a claim a few months back against a fairly high profile 'red carpet online video' producer who, it turns out, has a terrible reputation for hiring freelancers and not paying. They eventually paid up.

The re-edit is not clear in your post. Editing is a process and tweaking it to get it right is part of that. Is he withholding the full payment because he isn't yet satisfied? That can be frustrating for editors paid 'by the job' rather than by the day, as the job can go on forever with indecisive producer/directors. Try to get paid by the day whenever possible. Amazing how decisive people become.

Now, if he was satisfied at some point with your edit and now wants you to make a radically different version, that's another thing. You would be foolish to do so if you haven't yet been paid in full for the first one. But I think you have no right to keep his footage for #2. If you are holding his footage hostage until he pays you, I understand your feeling as I've been in the same boat, but it's his footage at the end of the day. Give him the footage as a gesture of good will. But keep any project files as mentioned by others. Also, as part of negotiating, perhaps the artist can give you something other than money which might satisfy your claim.

#1 is less likely to see any resolution in my opinion. Kit is generally your responsibility unless, as others have mentioned, production insurance was taken out or he was directly responsible for breaking it. Even then, it's more of a moral obligation than anything legal. Filmmaking involves some risk and that's why insurance is a good idea, but when productions are small it often seems a relatively large expense. I recommend taking out an annual insurance policy on your kit that covers situations like this. Cost depends on the value of your kit to some extent. I pay £35/month for £20,000 kit insurance.

You may not like this but, unless he broke the tripod, I think you have a moral obligation to finish the unpaid job and need to separate your thinking from #2 which is a different case. Since you worked for free on #1, I assume you and he agreed that you could use the footage for your own showreel, etc.? If so, I think you can keep a copy of the original footage, but also give a copy to him. Tell him that this is what you will do as a compromise.

Legal obligation? I don't know. I doubt any court would want to bother with such a case and it would be more expensive than it's worth to the artist. Small claims court is designed for cases when the total amount involved is less than £5000. If that is your situation, then use that for #2 if all else fails.

Finally, make contracts for everything and be as professional as possible. And sometimes, hard as it is when we feel exploited, you have to bite the bullet and chalk it all up to experience. Sometimes wasting time and sleepless nights worrying will prevent you from finding the next job.

12 years, 10 months ago - Yen Rickeard

All of the above. A big lesson in getting it in writing, which means you should sit down quite soon and work out what the contract should have been. Look up the resources on shooters, that should give you some good basic forms to work with.
Meanwhile your relationship with the artist has broken down. You have two choices. Walk away, put it down to experience, take the loss. This guy will not take you to court. Even if he felt a small claims court would deal with it, you obviously have different recollections of who said what to whom. He will no doubt tell people what a pain you are, your reputation will be damaged, as will his.
Option 2, Mend the relationship. Lawyers will tell you, never apologise, it can be taken for an admission of responsibility. But it is also the first step in getting back in touch. You can say that you are sorry that your relationship has broken down so badly. Look back and find the good things that you can say about the project, and mention those, and that, of course, you want it to come to fruition. Make sure your edit is good, and if he hasn't seen it, let him know that you hope he will be pleased. And then I'd suggest waiting to hear what he says in return. Don't ask for anything, If you start talking, let him know the hours you put in,how much the new tripod would cost (2nd hand?) Yes you agreed to do it for nothing, but you are a tripod down. And how nice it will be for him to have the finished edit, and put all this behind him. Be as positive as you can.
The worst case is you still hate one another, he is a shoot the worse, and you are a tripod down, but you have the satisfaction of having done your best.

12 years, 10 months ago - Yen Rickeard

I see Ken Barnes and I were typing our answers at the same time, and with almost the same voice.

12 years, 10 months ago - Tyrone D Murphy

UK Law, I am astonished how little people know about UK copyright, however this is where you are at

As the director you are a 50% owner of the footage by default, I had a similar problem and stopped the music video being published as to publish you/he/they need full clearance (chain of title). They cannot publish without yout permission, read our magazine issue 1 of 2012, the story is in the under VIMEO - VS _- Copyright. www.ufmag.org

I was the director of a music video and this joker took the co director credit, he tried to play hard ball but it did not work, the project is dead. So as the director of the works you can stop it from being published anywhere in the world

However, we may be taking about the same person here as your story sounds similar.

Magazine is www.ufmag.org

12 years, 10 months ago - Ned Hussain

Thank you all so much. as for the footage i DON'T own. I said i will give that back whenever he is free. I'm not holding that against him, never was.

I'm mostly concerned about the music video I SHOT. I gave +1 to those that gave great advice (in my opinion)