ASK & DISCUSS
INDEXWhat do exactly do producers mean when they state expenses only?
12 years, 6 months ago - patrick astwood
OK, I know this debate has been kicked about a lot, but I feel it is worth further scrutiny, if only to arrive at some kind of consensus, if not now, then in the future.Yesterday, a filmmaker posted a call for an expenses only 'staff writer' for an up-coming series called 'The Wake'. The producer mentioned that the writer would be paid travel expenses/food and that they would receive a DVD copy of the film.
Nothing wrong on the surface, you might say, and I get the point about collaboration and doing each other favours at the front-end, for some future reward blah, blah, blah. And yet, there still feels something quite suspect about this approach. Firstly, most writers work remotely, so the part about travel/food is a bit of a misnomer, but this fog of deliberate ambiguity about what it actually takes to write a script obscures the value of the process and contributes to continued writer exploitation.
Apart from electricity and the odd sandwich, it doesn't really cost anything in real financial terms to actually write a script. What it does take is an extraordinary amount of concentration, planning, emotion, stress and time, to craft something worthwhile. And this process must often be repeated for weeks and months, and only for a script editor rip your precious work to shreds. So yes, there is expense involved, but not in way some professionals seem to think.
This is where I think a very real distinction has to be made. Film production crew can volunteer their services for expenses only because they have tangible overheads that can be covered. Overheads most likely to include travel,fuel, consumables and the daily need for food and water. Writers, while not on set, may not necessarily incur the same form of'expenditure', but have their own specific variables of 'cost' and depreciation to consider.
That is what 'producers' and filmmakers on these boards fail repeatedly to understand. They implicitly do not understand the writing process, or how hard it is to write anything of worth. Simply throwing a writer some lose change and a DVD to cover their late nights and therapy, simply isn't good enough. Writing is continuous, motivated, agonising process, and a integral arm of film production in itself. It is not the boring bit you need to get out of the way so you can do the big director/producer thing.
If anything, it is a false economy to palm a writer off with 'expenses only' as it is highly unlikely that anyone who truly values their talent will work for you. My suggestion is to offer a nominal fee, it could be a £100 or £200, but above all it would demonstrate a modicum respect for writers and show you have some appreciation of what they will go through for you. Failing that, their needs to be more pressure on filmmakers to itemize, the precise costs they will cover, and where necessary to state a budget for those costs.
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12 years, 2 months ago - Joshua Westbury
"Expenses only" should not be synonymous with zero, completely agree with the poster above who said you should try to clarify what are reasonable expenses at the start of any job.
This debate about when it's OK to work for free, or for expenses, seems to come up about individual professions (this is about writers, there are other active or recent threads about actors, musicians and camera crew) actually the issues are more or less the same for everyone. I've started to put some thoughts down here: http://sci-fi-gene.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/money-for-nothing-part-i-freebird.html
12 years, 5 months ago - Vasco de Sousa
Expenses only, first of all, means they can't afford minimum wage. It perhaps means they'll contribute toward other expenses to show that they appreciate the work.
It's not about a lack of valuing the work. Perhaps some might do better to pay for an option and try to raise money, but they might not understand this way of working. Perhaps it might be an idea to point out what options are.
Now, writing can involve a lot of expenses besides just living. Travel is involved, and the best writer-director collaborations involve both being in the same place. Which expenses will you claim? IDS's expenses for a film might be more than your wage for ten years work.
I think people might not understand the time involved in creativity. If a director doesn't understand the time that goes into writing a script, well, perhaps that director is in the wrong business. But, by making a token contribution toward expenses, it's like saying thank you for helping out.
Steven King used to sell film rights to his short films for a dollar. He allowed students to use them for a very minimal amount. Yes, they paid, but hardly a proper "wage."
12 years, 4 months ago - Vasco de Sousa
I meant to say short stories, for students to make into short films. He sold a couple of those for one dollar each.
Stephen King also says "The money for the books is three times better."
12 years, 5 months ago - Peter Ward
I don't think writers are uniquely undervalued. Take a look at crew calls on the other side. The "expenses" compensation offered in many cases doesn't put a dent in the actual equipment costs, let alone travel and other real costs.
I think it would be interesting to see if not paying properly every actually works--can anyone point to a successful example?. My bet--as in business in general--it's a false economy. Garbage in/garbage out, as they say. You don't treat crew/staff/employees with respect*, they aren't going to give much of a shit about the quality of work they do and that will manifest in the quality of the product.
Being good producer/business person isn't merely about pinching pennies at every turn it's about knowing when and where to spend more; a producer or company nickle-and-diming major roles should be a red flag. The deferred payment--"After it's made and we sell it"--thing is suspect as well. Most type of filmmaking is expensive, if they haven't been able to raise enough to meet cover production costs how likely are they to be able to sell the film once it's made? Shit a friend of mine who sell computers for a living and never made a film in his life found an investor to front up to $8,000 for a script--how he did it, whether through mafia connections, I don't know.
Now if the project means something to you personally it might be a different story, like volunteering for charity. E.g., I shoot a lot of sketches for UCB people pro bono and have way more fun than on any paid shoot I've done. But at the same time the producer treats me like an equal participant in a collaborative enterprise not an employee he feels entitled to order around because he paid my cab fare to get to the shoot.
It's not merely a morality thing. These low/no pay gigs reflect questionable business judgement.
*Respect is key, by the way. Studies have shown (in particular one the Federal Reserve did) increasing remuneration is a dubious motivator except for the most rote tasks--beyond a certain point actually decreasing quality of output.
12 years, 6 months ago - Bill Hartin
Offers of "expenses only" writing gigs should be replied to with, This is the estimated amount of my "expenses"...and put forth a number. I did that and was promptly ignored or told to go pound sand with my "expenses". But I wasn't at all disappointed because I anticipated that response; but it sure felt good to assert in some small way, the value of my writing. When I read Patrick's description of our writing process, it reaffirmed my response to the "expenses only" listing that blatantly devalued the writing of anyone responding to the listing. We all work too hard to end up whoring ourselves for "expenses", unless I'm working with my own crew, who are all in the same boat, rowing in the same direction.
12 years, 6 months ago - Daniel Cormack
I take an opposing view. It is very easy for someone to write in their own spare time (outside of their day job hours) at pretty much zero expense. This is how most writers start and they write because they are love doing it, not because it is an agonising process. Those with talent sell their work. Those who need to try harder/smarter or who are untalented moan on Shooting People. By contrast, production roles generally need to be performed during working hours making it hard to hold down a regular job and also hone your craft.
Writing is an act of communication and if wannabe writers want to be paid for writing they need to realise that they not only need to find a willing audience, but also one which is prepared to paid for the privilege!
Which is why I find sentiments like this so depressing:
"They implicitly do not understand the writing process, or how hard it is to write anything of worth. Simply throwing a writer some lose change and a DVD to cover their late nights and therapy, simply isn't good enough. Writing is continuous, motivated, agonising process, and a integral arm of film production in itself."
At the end of the day writing is a hobby or a profession, not therapy. Some say say writing should come easily or not at all and from my perspective it certainly sets alarm bells ringing when people wax on about their creative sturggles. It tells me that person is more in love with their image of what they think a writer should be than with actual writing.
Furthermore, it shows a disconnect with their audience. The immediate one of people who are potentially interested in getting the film made and also the ultimate (hopefully) paying one.
To go back to writing as an act of communication, yes your best friend may sit up all night with you to discuss your deepest innermost thoughts, but can you really expect an audience of strangers to be so interested as to pay for them?
It is perfectly possible to combine your own personal, individual perspective with the art of reaching an audience. You will observe that most writers are actually reluctant to discuss the personal aspects or resonances of their work, precisely because they are personal.
12 years, 4 months ago - Alias Cummins
As a writer/producer, let me just chime in here. Writers have a great deal of expenses : Final Draft 8 license : $249.99, research materials (books researching the specific time period, theory of narrative structure, magazine subscriptions, DVDs,etc), rent, coffee, etc. etc.
These are all perfectly valid expenses and although the average producer looking for an expenses only writer is probably working on a tiny budget, as long as they *have* a budget they should be willing to cover, if not your rent, at least your research costs.
The notion that writing is free is a dangerous misconception that writers sadly perpetuate themselves through lack of confidence in their own abilities.
12 years, 4 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin
Hi Daniel, good question, but short films effectively never make a profit, so a profit share is a slice of nothing! It would be decent to at least offer though.
12 years, 6 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin
Very valid point, writers should be valued as every other team member. Possibly one redeeming factor is that a lampie/spark is never going to get that Hollywood call, whereas a writer who is discovered and credited could become hot property. The odds are slim, but slimmer still for the trades/below the line.
I suspect every department sees collaboration posts and questions who'll respond - from a production viewpoint being offered expenses only to pre-produce and produce a feature over the course of months isn't massively tempting, especially knowing the feature has no budget so you have to work 10x harder to crew it for free...
12 years, 5 months ago - Kristina Hughes
Though more for actors, the free form I helped create http://www.CopyProvided.com is something we use for making sure we get the copy of the footage (read the stipulations) and our name credited (social media, IMDb, the credit role, etc.). I also ask for mileage, parking and dry cleaning fees on these "passion projects". Perhaps the form can help you craft something for this instance. If you do, then please share it.
12 years, 4 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren
Well said Alias Cummins. And I also agree with Bill Hartin.
Any producer who doesn't appreciate the 'value' of a writer doesn't understand the filmmaking process/journey. And we are better off to avoid such people. If you can afford to offer expenses of, let's say, even only £50 or £100, that amount should then be offered as a 'fee' to the writer to help offset expenses as suggested by Alias Cummins.
12 years, 4 months ago - Andrew T. Wright
"The most important person in the motion picture process is the writer, and we must do everything in our power to prevent them from ever realizing it." - Irving Thalberg - Producer Universal/MGM.
To a greater or lesser degree this is still the mantra running through the industry from the bottom to the top. The caveat being that not all producers are shit-heads, neither are all directors, DP's or writers...but some are. At the lower end it seems more like the shit-headedness is born from ignorance, unprofessionalism and lack of money. At the top end it seems to stem from the "dance" of cutting a hard deal and coming in on or under budget (but there is a budget for the writer nonetheless).
I recently worked on a no/low budget project with another Shooter and it was one of the most professional projects I've ever been involved with in the last 10-yers. As writer, I was paid the same as the crew and was told it was nominal token fees from the off. But more importantly, the director knew that the writer and writing process is very much part of the "crew" and started the whole thing off with the script a few months before the cast and crew were put together.
The bottom line is be prepared to consider a good project with good people even though there maybe little or no money involved.
The shit-heads are easy to spot, they generally know nothing of process, terminology and are frequently ignorant and arrogant. Warning signs are things like, "I've got a crew and location and we are shooting next week, have you got a script you want to see on the big screen?" etc.
12 years, 5 months ago - Tom Green
Quite simply... what they mean is that they aren't go to pay you anything. I see a lot of calls for composers (my bag) saying the same thing, and for all of us it's a direct result of this 'democratisation'of the tools to make and distribute everything from music to film to journalism to photography. There's still money right at the top end of these businesses, but it's pretty much disappeared at the low end. There are for more providers of 'creative services' than there are buyers, and producers know it. So I'd say- stop wittering about how you 'should' get paid and just ignore all those posts asking for free work unless you fancy doing it for fun or experience. It's a market like anything else and at the moment it's saturated. Anyone who can charge has got lucky, usually. So do this creative stuff and hope to get lucky, and you may get paid one day. But expecting to get paid for the average SP posted film ? Laughable.
12 years, 4 months ago - Natali Drosou
I absolutely agree with you.
I am a composer and I have been trying to make the same point several times and fortunately I have started doing paid projects now. I have to spend hours and hours to produce just 1-2 minutes of music (depending how big the score is) but producers and directors don't appreciate this at all. It's always the same blurb about exposure and portfolio...!
This system will never change as long as there are writers and composers who don't appreciate their own work enough to have the guts to ask for money.
12 years, 4 months ago - Jacek Holdanowicz
Same thing applies to other 'remote' workers: editors, translators...
12 years, 5 months ago - Gabriel ARMSTRONG
There is no such thing as free-time (free-lunch) and remember something is always sacrificed or given: sleeping, friends, family and just doing nothing and something is always invested: time, training/craft/creativity, passion etc. so you are never giving it away there is always a cost no matter how you measure it.
Novices think they are getting training more seasoned professional know they are getting screwed!
So don't forget!
12 years, 4 months ago - Andrew Wasyliw
I think writers are definitely undervalued, and they should be given the same rate as the DoP or editor without hesitation (though admittedly that isn't always much on budgets for indie productions).
The idea of a director/producer commissioning a script, and not being actively involved in developing the foundations of their film and sharing the burden/creative process with the writer seems utterly baffling in any case. The director should know the world of their film in far more detail than the writer imo, so the writing process should be a constant interaction between the pre-production writer (screenwriter) and the on-set writer (director).
So often do I read scripts where the content, is not only minimal, buts it is bound to the page and not in the inherent activity of the narrative. (It cannot translate to screen).
I feel that if writers and directors were to collaborate more fully on the film writing stage, everyone would be a lot more happy with the results.
Based on this:
If anyone would like to collaborate on a film, I'd be very keen to do so. I am more than willing to pay a healthy fee relative to the contribution and based on an advance negotiation.
All the best, and lets all work towards keeping this wonderful medium alive!!
12 years, 5 months ago - Maria Caruana Galizia
Very interesting discussion. The tradition of working for expenses only in film goes way back but I think if I were a writer and a producer offered to pay me 'expenses' for my work I would ignore them. A script is the work of the mind and a producer should value it because it's the foundation for the film. (stating the obvious but I think a lot of new 'producers' forget this).
Its really hard to break into the filmmaking world and get credits but I think new writers are taken for a ride and exploited. If a producer doesn't offer a small fee (what would have been spent on expenses) I would say ignore them and move on.
12 years, 4 months ago - Daniel Jefferson
hi Daniel here from Thailand a novice in so many ways,a little surprised that no one has mentioned/entertained the idea of a writer being offered/negotiating a profitshare? is this unheard of?
12 years, 6 months ago - Shoaib Vali
One thing we should keep in mind, is that producers are glorified salesman, they know the hustle, they can hustle, and are very good at it, and most times, they think of innovative ways to do it! so if I see a post for a writer or anything else that pays expenses only, I would dig in more and set up a financial process/strategy with them beforehand just like Bill said above.
But yeah, its wrong, and wish that everyone in the industry does their bit, but when it comes to exploiting producers like that, two can and should play the same game with them..