ASK & DISCUSS INDEX

10 years, 6 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Hi Alève,

There's no hard or fast answer, but here are a couple of thoughts for what they're worth -

People grow, change, become unavailable, seasons change, locations become unavailable, you use whatever lights and camera you can get, etc. If you shoot a cheap scene with lots of compromise, you may just have to reshoot the whole scene anyway just for it to match.

Cheap scene may not be the showreel material you want, or misrepresent the rest of the film.

Scenes released in public may act as story spoilers, or at least be enough of a spoiler to dissuade a jumpy backer

Those scenes may not have much of an arc in themselves, so again, not necessarily what you want as showreel.

Then again that may all be wrong in this circumstance, just things to consider :)

10 years, 6 months ago - John Lubran

This is great strand started by Alève. It's just these sort of generous and learned contributions that makes this a true community. I'm almost in tears of happiness about it.

You lovely people.

10 years, 6 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Hi Alève,

Good luck selling the script, it's great to hear you're convinced it's an absolute winner, a polished gem! It'll be great to see the sub-scene you've produced.

Out of interest, have you registered the treatment and script etc with WGA or the US copyright office, or someone similar? If they're big production pieces, that's going to mean serious money involved, so that protection is going to be essential.

Also, as an aside, with serious money involved just be aware the scripts will be rewritten and rewritten and you won't get to direct - that's just not how money works in film, just in case you were hoping to direct a multi-million dollar budget from a standing start. The bonding company just wouldn't allow it, and without a bond, you don't get that level of finance, no matter any other factors! Spielberg is bondable with big budgets because he started with low budgets ('Duel' for instance is wonderfully simple in many ways), if he hadn't brought those in on time and budget we wouldn't know his name today. Just to align expectations here :)

10 years, 6 months ago - Adriano Cirulli

Here is another route worth exploring:

Many VFX houses, big and small, are actively looking for original content to co-produce, as opposed to being just vendors at the mercy of tax breaks.

This sort of deal would effectively translate into zero budget VFX for you. If you have an amazing script, good credentials and are willing to share part of the ownership of your film, it’s something you could consider.

10 years, 6 months ago - Alève Mine

Paddy the scenes will definitely need to be reshot for the films (two features, one series, one short). No way we'd use these shots in the end films. Yes they will definitely misrepresent the films.

I'll check the shotsheet for spoilers!

The scene selection was made more on the basis of shootability on nobudget than arcs or other attractiveness as such. Remove all you can't shoot and you only have a half, one or two scenes left anyway, to be played in a location that doesn't look quite like what was in the script anyway. For anything else you may need copters, vfx, cgi, etc. And maybe some decent production design, lighting and audio or so? :)

Wozy I won't spend any money (less the income loss would I be employed for something else) on this: can't.

Location change in fact changes the story and the characters, it was interesting to see that in a shot this week.

So to your question: because the ony other option is not to do anything, and that's not an option. I'm in Switzerland. Which is synonymous to: I'm stuck in Switzerland. There is no film industry here, and certainly not for projects in English with unknown actor-directors. I mean it quite literally, from the point of view of the structures available. And the recent Euro-Franc decision doesn't make things any more possible. Maybe there is some way hidden somewhere that I haven't accessed yet nor heard about. Benefit of the doubt.

Nope no producer yet!

Yes I hope it enhances financing chances more than my not doing anything, as well as third party engagements that would bring some sort of movement to the lot.

Yes I wrote some shots from a nonexistant film and we shot that a couple of days ago. I possibly should do that again.

Thank you both.

10 years, 6 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren

Yes - I like your thinking :)

10 years, 6 months ago - Adriano Cirulli

I think these guys did it really well.
https://vimeo.com/116108307

10 years, 6 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren

For me it isn't necessarily a bad thing. In fact I got interested in a feature because of the scene from a script that was shot. I'm now onboard and producing. But in my case the scene didn't spoil anything.

However, the money spent on that 'teaser' will have to be re-spent as we certainly couldn't use it in the main film. The actors have changed, the locations will be different, even the time of year. So it served it's purpose, in this case, to get a producer interested.

So my question would be, for what purpose are you shooting a scene or two? You obviously have your producer already. Is it to enhance the chances of finance? Just to prove you can direct? etc etc... If you just want content for a reel, then maybe you could just write a few scenes from fictitious films to prove your skills. They don't have to be from the feature.

10 years, 6 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Alève, if you're getting the film made through favours, slices of the film, etc., you're already producing it. I'd be inclined to carry on as opposed to wait for a mythical ideal financing producer to appear. 1) It's unlikely they will and 2) if they do, they'll have money with which to sort out anything they choose to keep, or 3) they'll simply reshoot from scratch.

Regarding 2), if a big backer did turn up, and not reshoot, it'd be simple enough to buy or bully people out of contacts.

10 years, 6 months ago - Adriano Cirulli

Hi Alève, my suggestion would be to get a VFX supervisor on board who knows what they are doing. They'll be able to advise on ways you can sell your shots without breaking the budget (e.g. use compositing techniques instead of CG).

Whatever you do, I would recommend not to let VFX take centre stage. This comes from someone who has worked in the VFX industry for many years. Personally I would focus more on the 'irrelevant interactions' as you put it, but that might be just personal taste :)

Some further reading: http://prolost.com/blog/vfxnottheanswer

10 years, 6 months ago - Adriano Cirulli

Actually, what impressed me the most about that proof-of-concept are the young leads. Having said that, there are lots of VFX you can do on a small budget.

10 years, 6 months ago - Alève Mine

Susi, thanks. Indeed an excellent idea: it will contribute to character building, maybe even cause new ideas about the main film.

When I finish the editing of the stuff we've filmed this week, what we'll do on Monday and another 2-hour film, I'll give it some thought.

10 years, 6 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren

Thats a lot of VFX for no money! I could possibly help out on a couple of those but would need to see the script to get a fuller understanding of what the shot looks like etc... Maybe send me something once you have it worked out in a script/story context.

10 years, 6 months ago - Alève Mine

Paddy I wrote under a (male) pen name and published the book. Recognition doesn't show in the sales but from a talk I gave about the story. It is a digital publication for now, so it will still be a printout if any. I may make other formats later. As for the second feature, its theme song, the one that was supposed to get a MV, already played on the radio in London. The series looked interesting to a book agent who apparently would represent it if it was in the form of a book. But I already have a pilot script, so it feels a bit odd there going backwards. Erratum the short does relate to the other projects, but only in the dialogue, not the visuals and not yet in the partial scene that we shot.

Thank you for the decription. Bond looks fine to me and it is good to know that a solution exists for a first feature. I am of the very creative yet somehow very reliable - that is empirically possible whatever people generally tend to believe - type that takes on and finishes big projects full frontal without blinking. I just need loads of prep time, with ample gap time before the production for just in case because even I can make plenty of mistakes, and a great team that knows what I don't know, put together by a great producer. Prep with vfx as I set the shots to know if there are any restrictions, prep with the actors, the cinematographer and other key people so that on the day(s) we can speed shoot. And to add for no specific reason about 35% to the timeplan just before signing it off :)

For the other feature I'd be happy to work with a relevant director. Emphasis on relevant, for this particular project.

10 years, 6 months ago - Barry Staff

Hi Alève - further to Susi ( and Paddy and Wozy), if you've got a brilliant script, rather than doing a scene out of context, or something pre the story, use the kit for a teaser of the whole concept. You don't even need actors for that. Employing succinct VO, ECUs etc., gives producers and financiers the genre, the tone, the theme, the dilemma, the unique take on THE SOMETHING that you want the money for in order to fully articulate it. As you know, so much can be done with light and shadow, suggestions of speed, impact, all assembled with 'free' music/sound. Expertly assembled, that promo shows your overall talent and thereby stands the very best chance of opening hearts and minds, and pockets, than anything else would.

10 years, 6 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren

Maybe no film industry to speak of, but I know a group of financiers who are based there - and it's beautiful :)

Good luck with your endeavours.

Best

Wozy

10 years, 6 months ago - Adriano Cirulli

Hi Alève,

maybe I misunderstand your point?

If you approach a VFX house or supervisor and offer them zero budget to work with, you are basically asking them to partly fund your film, by covering the costs of the artists, software and the infrastructure need to do the job.

This is nothing new and has been done many times, but obviously they might want to see their investment returned eventually.

10 years, 6 months ago - Susi Arnott

Just a thought from much earlier in the thread - if characters mean anything much in your script, could you concoct a 'pre-quel' scene or two for shooting/editing while you're waiting, so that even if the materiality of the final scenes isn't up to scratch you have focused your mind and skills on who these people are and how they might interact during the feature itself?
(From a documentarist!)

10 years, 6 months ago - Alève Mine

John, big hug! :)

10 years, 6 months ago - Alève Mine

Barry, gee yet another excellent idea. Thanks. To truly give the feel I may need, for some of the the projects, some images that I can't make. Will enquire.

10 years, 6 months ago - Alève Mine

Alexandra, thanks. Nice trailer!

10 years, 6 months ago - Peter Spencer

Hi, WHIPLASH could not get funding - so the writer/director shot a sequence from the script and entered it to Sundance - won in the short film category - and found funding for the full feature. Also - have you seen DRIVE? entire chase sequence with helicopters - yet you never see the helicopter at all. Sound and lights do everything. That was low budget - 2 million dollars including Ryan Gosling.

10 years, 6 months ago - Alève Mine

Peter, thanks, good to hear it can work!

Random thoughts on which scenes to film in my case... I read whiplash the feature was that (intense but filmable!) scene from beginning to end, so the short was quite representative. Different situation here, and I'll try and find key images, thanks.

I haven't seen Drive (the writer was inspired by The Transporter it seems!). The copter scenes in my intended feature mainly involve being in one, sometimes shooting at another, mostly over a desert. Hiding them from the view would unfortunately take major story modifications. I'll have to find something else...

10 years, 6 months ago - Alève Mine

Adriano I'll be happy to look at offers.

And will likely walk away. Nobudget is often mistaken for noargument. And it's a can of worms. Vfx is but one among many roles appearing in credits, not to mention the roles that don't appear in the credits because they come after the film is produced.

So this is indeed a central subject I'd like to put on the table and hear from everybody here about.

10 years, 6 months ago - Alève Mine

Adriano thanks. Actually I found there were too many scenes of the leads engaged in irrelevant interaction. It looked forced that way. That video could have been much shorter. I guess they had to justify the costs in some way, or maybe a question of personal taste on my side.

Tell me more about VFX on small budget please!

Thanks for the link. It says "Applicants must be based in Europe as their principal residence and where they are paying council tax or its equivalent to the relevant local authority." Well there again, Switzerland is not in Europe :)

10 years, 6 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren

What vfx do you need? Might be able to help you out...

10 years, 6 months ago - Alève Mine

Adriano, thanks for the heads up, I will pay special attention to that. That said with less of those "irrelevant..." I didn't mean more VFX. I meant relevance in making the point for the story.

Hopefully there is a good VFX person who can make seamless images who'd manage a zero budget. That's 0. Very easy to break.

10 years, 6 months ago - Alève Mine

Wozy: helicopters (without having to hire them) that don't look like they are vfx, fictitious building with explosions in fictitious setting including areal shots, physical fight with animals attacking (and people, but these should be stunts/qualified people, which is yet another cost but is an important part of some of the work that would be representative of me), body parts reassembling, shooting around with all sorts of means including bazookas (that don't look like vfx either), stuff moving on its own and appearing out of nowhere (no fade-ins), ghostly and floating appearances, (identified small) flying object, astrophysical explosions, cg for characters there too, (partial) morphing, cg art for background, spaceships, village, interiors or nature. I probably missed a few.

Paddy people are irrational to start with and that is what I'm trying to avoid, because rationally, knowing the content of these projects, one should invest to make them happen, but one is irrevocably irrational. Which would include me, which in turn causes a loop in this paragraph... Damn.

Btw thinking with one's heart can be quite rational in the sense of thinking in all awareness: "If I don't do this, my heart won't feel right. Something won't feel right. So I'll do it.". (But for that, one needs to be able to take risks, too.) In fact I wonder if there are any statistics about the efficiency in terms of success when acting based on that. My guess is - any other available information being also cleared - this may give a better result.

Derren Brown? That's hypnosis. They will ask for their money back when they find out. :) "Feel this script suck you in, you are now in this fascinating new world full of insight and if you don't invest soon it will disappear. On my count of three, you will call your bank..." Sounds like fun.

10 years, 6 months ago - Alève Mine

They are all in script form already. I'll try and think which scenes that would need vfx I can otherwise shoot nobudget and will be happy to let you know. Any link for me to get an idea of how your vfx looks or what can be done on your side, so I can pick the scenes accordingly?

10 years, 6 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Another thought, if the rest of the script is high budget stuff, a dialogue scene isn't going to sway a backer that much as it doesn't really demonstrate directing action/money. Better than nothing, but the third option may be better - writing something short, self-contained, that features a taste of action, a taste of vfx, taste of dialogue but that has some arc in itself. If it's more representative of the kind of aesthetic and style you want for the feature it may be more helpful in showing you can direct those types of scenes?

Switzerland, there's real money there, so you need to help an investor think with their heart not head!

10 years, 6 months ago - Alève Mine

Paddy sales is something that is very foreign to me, I never could identify with that. Not that I haven't tried, or acknowledged its importance. I know the theory, I've learned that for different jobs. Just my body refuses to submit. But the material is good even so and I can only hope it is visible through the content of what I say to people generally.

10 years, 6 months ago - Alève Mine

What I'm saying is

- people in other roles are also using their time and equipment (software, hardware, props, location, electricity, travel, telecom, time, and so we'd wish also schedule blocking, sleep deprivation, emotional investment...) when they are participating in a nobudget item. There is potentially only 100% of a project's income streams available and only a proper producer can figure the acceptable financial structure.

- and you want to open the ownership door to the right organisation at first. A producer is likely get turned off when they find out they won't have the project fully in their hands. That could be a way of disabling the actual production.

What are people's views here about this?

10 years, 6 months ago - Alève Mine

Paddy thanks. The sub-scene of the short is unrelated to the features or the series. Btw I haven't produced it ;) Don't expect any great sounds or images on my nobudget either, just to align yours!

Yes of course. With both. And one of the features is also adapted from a published book. I'm not taking any chances and will not let anyone get away with anything there.

There will be a calm conversation about who directs etc when the time comes. At the beginning I was open to having others direct them, but it wouldn't make much sense. For one project I may be too busy with other stuff and that could be a reason. Before the beginning my plan was in fact to look for a writer to adapt the book while having a director make a music video. Not quite what happened.

Adriano thanks. Paddy there seems to be an issue there.

10 years, 6 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Darren Brown is not all about hypnosis, watch his cannon and learn about the techniques he uses - including quite a significant amount of showmanship. Or study used car salesmen! They use peoples innate need for consistency, linguistic affirmation, making the buyer feel the vehicle, removing obstacles, etc. Test drive isn't to see if you like the car, it's for you to picture yourself in it already owning it, away from rational grids of extras and charges and in pure emotional space with the salesman reinforcing the state and sales points. Car is sold before the post rationalisation where the brain tries to justify decisions already made for consistency's sake.

For instance, where's the best place to meet your potential investor? Their office? Their house? Coffeeshop? Empty cinema? TV studio? The last two are very powerful, they are a little bit of the exotic, a tale to tell, unfamiliar ground. No longer are they the big efficient boss, they're now on your turf (assuming you're familiar with closed cinemas or TV studios). They enter a more suggestible state, you can excite them. Win the heart, the head will rationalise any decisions retrospectively. We're in showbusiness, so make a show of it ;)

10 years, 6 months ago - Adriano Cirulli

This might also help: http://crosschannelfilmlab.com/fr/appel-a-projets/

10 years, 6 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Susi, what a brilliant suggestion!

10 years, 6 months ago - Alève Mine

Adriano, okay, I can't do that on nobudget.

10 years, 6 months ago - ALEXANDRA BOYD

I have a big budget period Olympic boxing film. Desperate to show what i could do with it and visually explain tone and style, I raised £10,000 on Indiegogo and shot a six minute sequence that is not a scene from the script. It will never be used in the finished feature. It shows feeling and emotions of the story and the main boxer'a struggle to win at all costs. A big theme in the film.
The short stands alone as a narrative and has been in nine festivals so far, gaining me recognition as a director and me something to show in pitch
meetings.
Here's the 45 second trailer for the trailer....
https://vimeo.com/93031658
Good luck Aleve xxxx

10 years, 6 months ago - Alève Mine

Paddy these are not films I could get made in slices or with favors. Even the short: I did a scene last week, but will need to reshoot if and when the full short gets done because it is part of a bigger scene that will take an albeit simple location that would be harder to get without funding. And I do many things but (or therefore) I'm not a producer. Nonononono.

A relevant producer may be unlikely to appear, but if they do and they look at the material, they will want to produce these. They'll go: veni, vidi, produci, wini wini.

Wini. Wini. Wini. Prequeli. Wini. Sequeli...

Are you sure? People with financing don't have endless financing either. So if they have to buy anything out, it may influence their decision.

Adriano did you mean ownership on the teaser or on the possible feature?

10 years, 6 months ago - Alève Mine

I'll do my best, Paddy.
Removing obstacles, yes. A cinema, definitely.
When a relevant person comes here, I have that information and I can contact them.

10 years, 6 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Glad you've got everything registered and so can prove precedent :). It means you can show the script around, indeed if based on a published book (which you have rights/option for?), use the sales of the book as a part of your financial quest.

For instance, let's say the book is at #95 in an Amazon sub-sub-genre, that's going to help you sell the film script as you've something to reflect, that the book is already popular. May even be with buying 100 copies and posting them to potential backers explaining what it is you're doing. If they see you've got the rights already to a successful work and actually get to hold a copy in their hands, that's quite powerful. More powerful than a printout. It does someone else has already backed the story, and it had an established base.

As for directing, I am sure the conversation will be calm, but prepare for the outcome. No film over £1M is made without a bond - the bond is effectively 'on time and budget' insurance.

Everyone is terrified that a project could overrun. Overrunning is painfully expensive, even a single day means renegotiating hundreds of contacts when you're over a barrel, it's not pretty. Cast and crew have other projects booked on which have to delay, you cancel dozens of flights, scrabble around for last minute hotels, kit, keep locations closed to the public for another day, etc. Tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds of extra investment per day. The backers have already put big money on the line, now they have to find extra or lose the lot, everyone panics, everyone gets very cross. In the absolute worst case, the film gets abandoned, everyone loses everything.

To reduce that risk, you buy a 'bond' which is basically a type of insurance. The bonder is an experienced producer who, in exchange for ~3.5% of your gross budget (and that's a lot of money! It's £35,000 per million, and that £35,000 could go a long way...) will guarantee that the film gets made. They do this by having their own people in the wings ready to take over control. Each day, detailed progress reports will tell those that need them how many pages, scenes, shots, feet of film, cast, crew, technical problems, etc happened that day. Reports will tell them what corrective steps are being taken to get back on track. If the project gets to a stage where it's escaped from the control of the team making it, the bonder steps in, fires a load of people (certainly the director, usually line producer, and as many others as seem to cause issues or be surplus) and puts his own in place. Dan Selakovich who's a member of this site (where are you Dan? Gone quiet so working I guess...) is a bonders director. The 'own people' go in and drag the project back onto time and budget forcibly. They may cut scenes, they may downgrade effects, they may change dialogue, they may create bodge scenes to cover a lot of expensive cut material, but they take an out of control project and get it finished and delivered. It won't be the original director's vision of that film, it won't have the sweated over nuances of a dozen takes for a shot, but it'll be complete.

This is all done in private, secretly, so viewers will never know - but I'm sure you can think of films that sort of jar a little, like they've been made by two directors! They likely have, and the second director had to jump in and finish the film in the time left available.

So, that's what a bond is, and why, so you can see how bonders want to assess their own risk in a project, and want to be sure they don't have to rescue it - they'd rather just take the money for nothing. They will have their own criteria for providing a bond, but as budgets climb, they want 'bondable' principals and cast. Some actors can be brilliant performers, but too unreliable to be bonded. Some directors are very creative, but are a liability. They don't get bonded, they no longer get feature work. Same with line producers. On the other hand, you become bondable by delivering on time and budget several times at increasing budgets. This is why big budgets are given to the same few directors over and over - they've worked up from lower budgets and proved they can deliver consistently, so the bonder gets to keep his money.

Just a little background, this is why it's extremely unlikely anyone will get to direct a big budget film without having built up a bondable reputation. Just too risky, and the knock-on effect of a bad couple of days on set is so huge and expensive and inconvenient nobody wants to chance it!

10 years, 6 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Nobody invests in film based purely on their heads. If they do, they'll be loaning you money against collateral like tax credits, not taking a punt with serious money. To take a punt, they need an emotional connection, to become irrational. There are a few subtle tricks you can use to foster that state (hint - watch a bit of Derren Brown, read salesmanship handbooks, etc). Yes, it probably is harder financing a film than directing one, but unless you get the former you don't get the latter... ;-)

10 years, 6 months ago - Adriano Cirulli

Alève, I meant the feature. For the teaser you probably don’t want to use many VFX. In most cases a 'sizzle reel' or some animatics would be enough to convey the concept.

10 years, 6 months ago - Alève Mine

Paddy yes. I'd better hurry up and write something else: got a shoot tomorrow morning! Less the vfx for which I don't have the tools. Any freeware?

It has not been proven to me that there is any money anywhere. It may just be a rumor, a myth, a belief that started spreading at some point in the past. I'll believe it when I see it.

Getting someone to think with their heart is harder than to direct a movie of any kind of budget. I'll try.

Wozy yes, it is still beautiful.