ASK & DISCUSS INDEX

11 years, 4 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Don't underestimate the value of both luck and persistence. Luck is being in the right place at the right time, persistence gives you more chances of being in that position.

There's a lot of unpaid/low paid work out there - that's because there's basically no money left in film/TV in the UK, they glory years are gone. The very technology that has made youtube possible has also helped create a larger talent pool and cheaper kit, so budgets are crushed. There are a few tentpole productions a year, but a lot of 'getting by' kinds of jobs. Do as much as you can and hope to get a break...

11 years, 4 months ago - Dan Selakovich

Let me first say that I know nothing about the U.K. film industry. That said: What is it you want to do, exactly? (And don't say "direct"). Let's say you want to edit. Start contacting every top editor in the U.K. and try to get on a show as an apprentice. Or if you want to work in say, post sound, find out the best sound houses in the U.K. and offer to work for free or near free doing anything with your goal to be a dialogue or sound efx editor.

Back in the 80s, I met this young kid at a post house who, at the time, was cleaning, getting food for clients--real crap jobs. But every moment he could spare was with the colorist. Within a year, he was the assistant colorist, now he's one of the top colorists in town.

Let's say you want to be an A.D. There's a very clear path to that: start as a P.A., and eventually work your way up.

In the early 80s, I started as a loader with the small production company that did regional commercials. I eventually worked my way up to camera operator. Then went to film school and found I had a real knack for editing. When I got out of school, I sent a resume every monday to a company called "Canon" that spit out about 2 movies a month as an assistant editor. The only reason they called me is because they had thrown out all of the resumes that had piled up, and the next monday they had mine... again.

The first feature I edited was this low budget "horror" film. After first cut was done, the producers realized they hired the wrong director. He was fired. Writers were hired to write new scenes. The producer told me I was going to direct those new scenes, then re-edit the picture to make it work. It went on to make a solid profit. So now I was someone that could save a picture. 99 percent of my career was working uncredited fixing movies in trouble. When I started in this industry, I didn't even know people like me existed. But we do.

My point is, you never know where the road will lead, but you have to start walking somewhere with a clear goal in mind.

BTW, I wouldn't give any potential employers your web site. Doing wedding videos is not a career maker. Sorry, I know you need to make money, and that's as good as any, but feature people tend to look down on that sort of thing.

11 years, 4 months ago - Tim iloobia

@Lee Morgan
mate - thanks for your reply. its always good to try and take time to share experiences within this world - there is no one way to do anything and no absolutes in this business. Creativity, innovation and bending the rules are a great asset. I resisted many conventional routes which meant it took me longer to get a career started but finally i have and its almost a decade now and i'm still not back behind a cash-till in a shop somewhere. I just about balance doing commercial work with independent film work without selling a kidney (im on my second feature film) but focus is the key i think. Try and build two portfolios. one as the film-maker you want to be, and one for the business side of things. And keep it simple and to the barest amount of content necessary.
good luck
Tim

11 years ago - David Graham Scott

Hi Lee. I've been making documentaries at a serious level for about 20 years and quite honestly it feels like I'm starting from square one again and again and again. That's despite having a fair amount of my films broadcast and winning various awards. In fact I just won an award for Best UK documentary in London at a fairly prestigious festival. Got some great press from that too.
I'm an authored filmmaker making a distinct body of work and it's extremely difficult to make a living from this. Occasionally I've made very good money but it's not reliable as a source of income so had a sideline job for my bread-and-butter dosh. Unfortunately, I was made redundant from that job a couple of years ago and it's been a real struggle since that time.
I suggest you keep your dream alive and find another source of income to pay the bills...even just some part-time work. Don't let that job destroy your ambitions though. I used to work in cinemas as a projectionist and it was perfect for me as I could work in the evenings and concentrate on my filmic endeavours during the day. I'd also use my holidays to go off on filming expeditions.
It was all hunky-dory till the cinemas all went digital and the majority of projectionists were laid off. Now I've plenty of time on my hands but struggle to make ends meet. Just praying I can get some sales/distribution on my new film, Iboga Nights: http://iboganights.co.uk/
I've been in the same boat before and something will undoubtedly happen to save me from complete destitution as has often been the case in the past.
Never lose sight of your dreams and get your films made by any means necessary. Take a crappy job for a while if necessary or get yourself skilled in one particular area of film production to get freelance jobs.
Good luck with it all.

Many regards

DGS

11 years, 4 months ago - Lee Morgan

Hey Robert,
Yeah I know you're right some great advice and comments here, exactly what I was after really. Always good to reach out to others and hear other people's comments and experiences.

You raise a good point actually although I think I have that approach anyway as I'm usually just happy to be working but it's important to remember at the end of the day it's a team effort. Always makes for a better working environment when everyone is fun, happy and keen to work.

Best,

11 years, 4 months ago - Lee Morgan

Hey Tim,

Thanks for your response, I think I may have covered some of these points further up and as I was replying your response cropped up.

It's in no way harsh, it's exactly what I'm after, useful advice and constructive criticism. I've already experienced a few times how harsh and cut throat things can be so it's great to have all these helpful responses. That's why I thought I'd dive straight into shooting people and get peoples thoughts, I feel the past year or so I've settled into just getting by off wedding videos and corporate work where the original goal and passion has always been filmmaking.

I've actually shot, edited and directed (or co-directed) every single video on my site and I do need to make that clear. And saving money on not paying for Vimeo and being limited on size and quality of uploads doesn't help. Again it was a case of catering to trying to make money through wedding videos so attempting to make the site feel like a proper company, even listing mates of mine on the about page despite the fact they've had no part in any videos on there, essentially so people would be more inclined to make a booking. It's crazy really, a nice redesign and refocus is certainly on the cards.

Really appreciate the time taken here though, by everyone in fact. Sure it's a balancing act of trying to earn money and forward my career/expertise but my drive and determination never falters.

Best regards

11 years, 4 months ago - Lee Morgan

@Tim iloobia Wicked sound advice many thanks. Obviously I've got to make money to allow myself to buy better kit and take time off to do the sorts of films I want to but keeping the money making corporate/wedding type things completely away from my film work and then only the film work of mine thats actually any good (which I myself always think are the same two videos you mentioned, maybe the music video too as a third) is a great idea.
In the years since graduating though I seem to gather that there is no one way to do anything in this industry and it's unlike any other, for better or worse.

I've only just turned 26 though so I guess I shouldn't worry too much that I've not made a billion dollars at the box office just yet...

11 years ago - Lee Morgan

Thanks Robin that's inspiring stuff. Glad to see you mention about working with mates as that's what got me interested in the craft in the first place, the chance to work together with like minded individuals and create something as a collaborative effort.

11 years, 4 months ago - Lee Morgan

I hadn't thought of it like that, it's a good point. I mean if I'm meeting for film based work or applying for anything related to that where links or examples are required then I always send a specific link, usually vimeo so that the wedding side of things is hidden or not noticeable.
But there's not really a clear separation between my filmmaking projects and the website www.chicanefilms.co.uk well in fact there's none, everything is contained within that one website.

11 years ago - Lee Morgan

@Joshua Kahan Hey man, Thanks for taking the time to respond. Totally agree with you there I think, nice to hear. Just recently invested in a load of great new quality kit and am pushing ahead making some (hopefully) great shorts, music vids etc so it's nice to know I wasn't alone in that thinking, which was only just recently. Great website BTW

11 years, 4 months ago - Lee Morgan

Many thanks for your extremely useful thoughts and opinions. I have just recently been thinking a lot about how the industry is changing and that perhaps the old business models and ways of getting ahead are rapidly becoming dead in the water.
Certainly internet based productions or releasing same day in cinemas,VOD and DVD or streaming services are becoming ever more popular it would seem.

Nothing beats good old fashioned hard work, determination and as you say luck.

11 years, 4 months ago - Lee Morgan

Hey, wicked that's great. Yeah it is wordpress, I developed it alongside a mate who does web design just to keep myself busy a while back when things were very quiet.
I've obviously worked on so many things and in so many different media markets I couldn't help but try to appeal to all of them in the hope it would maximise my chances of getting work whatever the target market might be. So I've got corporate projects, old Uni projects, films, tv, Weddings all sorts on there which I've been thinking lately may not be focused enough and may actually be counter productive in getting work.

Keeping the weddings completely separate and using the money from those to allow myself the time off and budgets to pursue filmmaking proper has been a big thought of late, the site could then be tailored to filmmaking as you say.

11 years, 4 months ago - Robert Shears

Some incredible advice here, I learnt a lot just reading the responses. I can not say I have a huge amount of experience, (as i have only been freelancing for about a year). However something i have found has helped me greatly, is just making sure that no matter how long you have been working. Make sure you are still smiling, still making jokes and being generally good to have on set.

Perhaps this seems like common sense, (and it is) but you would be surprised how many people don't do it.

11 years ago - Joshua Kahan

@Lee Morgan Richard has a valid point, it is a game in that respect and a stage name is fair. I say fuck what anyone else thinks. Be proud of your work, own it, own it all. It shows how diverse, talented and professional you are. If someone is looking at your work and it's a wedding video or a music video there's plenty of overlap and you can tell if someone is any good or not very easily.

What I would suggest is in your spare time make the videos you want to be making and sooner or later with luck and persistence someone might come along and ask you to make more and pay you.

That's just my opinion though.

11 years, 4 months ago - Dan Selakovich

"It's been a weird one really when I look back so far, I started out pretty strong but unfortunately had bad luck with productions being cancelled, companies going bust etc."

That's not weird. That is completely normal. In fact, that is more common than things going smoothly. I have certainly been on more films that have fallen through than on films that got produced. Probably half of those films were in pre-production before falling apart. Most of the time it's because a name actor changes their mind, causing the investors to back out. It really sucks--especially when you turn down work because you think you have a job. Get used to it.

11 years, 4 months ago - Tim iloobia

Hi there,
I caught your post and was reading through all the sage advice offered here and for what its worth here are a few of my thoughts, mainly on presenting yourself online.

Try and have a clear role and skill you can sell.
Its not clear what you personally do, so its hard to know how to employ you.
Try putting specific key credits alongside your work so I can understand your skills better. (ie -director / editor / camera / producer) Telling me what camera you use but not what people did what is not very useful. I can watch camera demos on Vimeo.

Looking at your work for example, i make instant assumptions in the same way I must assume any prospective client will make instant assumptions.
They have little time to do much else. Whether they are right or wrong isn't the point - the point is what is the first impression.
So with my client head on I go to your website….
(and please don't think of me as harsh - I'm genuinely trying to offer constructive advice.)

First - there is no overview or reel to show me what you do. I don't want to read that you think you are good - i want to see that you are good and decide myself. Hit me with your best stuff first cos i might not get to the second video anyway.
Decide what skill you are selling and perhaps build up a reel/portfolio just for that.

I see wedding videos as the primary work as they are the first thing for me to view - so this tells me something about you - I assume you primarily make wedding videos.
Then when i watch one i see the statement - "Please note this is not representative of final video quality. etc…..
This is a terribly bad idea to write this - anyone can upload a full HD lush version of their work online now so this tells me you are not up to date with the technical side of things even though you told me you were in your opening blurb. I would recompress and reupload anything that you can in HD.

I think you yourself point out your own main obstacle when you say you have done just about every type of video based production you could think of.
But that doesn't equal making you a master at them all.
Be more focussed is my humble advice.
A Swan Song and Maze Man are by far the most impressive things on your site - they make me want to keep a look our for you.
But things like weddings, slow paced motorbike videos and dream idols - keep them well away. They are not in the same league. They may pay the bills but they are not going to get you work on a feature film I imagine.

I hope this is somehow helpful. and i mean it in a helpful way, i really do.
The world you want to enter into is HARSH sometimes, and will tear you and your work to shreds in a second so be prepared for that. So show them your best and don't give them that opportunity.
sincerely yours
Tim

11 years ago - Robin Schmidt

This is so tough to respond to because we're in this weird place where there lots and lots of new people coming through whose work looks decent enough but who lack any experience of the job so they get found out really quickly. Any and all experience is invaluable and there really is no substitute for it.

I disagree with dan's approach here because that's the old way to do it. You're a new gun and you've got the kit and you need to make it pay for itself.

When I started I had an Oxford degree, was demonstrably creative but couldn't even get unpaid runner positions.

That really really pissed me off. So I set up my own production company and just learned by making mistake after mistake after mistake until I actually knew what I was doing.

Te key thing is I did it with a couple of mates and that's what you need. Doing it in your own really sucks. Find a couple of people who also share your passion. Team up with them and just reach out to the community at large to make connections and find people who are at the same level as you. Everyone grows together and it's so much easier to do stuff when there's a lot of you.

There's lots of video getting made, lots of new digital
Agencies that need cheap labour but that will take a chance on new talent for smaller viral
Jobs.

Every man and his dog has a camera these days, everyone is a director, for better or worse. The skill that continues to bring home the bacon and still has some value is editing. There are lots of competent editors around but very very few outstanding ones, they're worth their weight in gold. If you're a good editor you
will always find work.

As with everything though, here's no point doing this if it bankrupts you. It's not worth it. It will always be a struggle and you have to do a lot of crappy jobs before you get to a place where you're in the glamour zone.

If you want to make films then you need to find those films. In some ways just getting a sensible job and keeping your head above water, saving money and shooting shorts on weekends puts you in no worse place than someone who's shooting concerts and weddings every day. When it comes down to it agents don't give a monkeys how many music videos you've shot, they just want to see the drama. So, if that's what you want to do, be smart, earn money, make shorts, lots of them, and learn your craft.

There are so many possible answers to this. Through running a company I've had to learn how to be good at lots of different things. Those can all pay the bills but having made a concerted move into drama last year finally i still found myself staring down the barrel of the poverty gun.

At the end of the day just be a really good person to work with and the opportunities will come. And when they do come, make sure you don't fuck it up!

11 years, 4 months ago - Richard Anthony Dunford

With the wedding videos thing why don’t you just do that under a STAGE NAME so you can make a bit of money without the stigma. I don’t think filmmakers who do wedding vids or even corporate stuff are taken seriously. Its kinda like a musician playing in a function band. Yes it might pay a bit of money but is frowned upon my bands playing originals

11 years, 4 months ago - John Lubran

It’s also worth bearing in mind just how rapidly changing are the business models associated with all types of media enterprise. Whilst the big corporations in movies and TV continue to hold down some pretty gargantuan budgets their hold on audiences is diminishing. They've already lost the bigger part of the under 30 year olds, about whom I suspect they have only a thin understanding. This also has a major affect on how facts are perceived in the socio and geo-political propaganda wars.

The demographics favour the new wave outside of the big corporations, except for those who still provide the platforms on the Internet and even that industry is likely to become something of a dinosaur in your life time. Truly democratising empowerment is the emerging theme, unless the horrible tyrants find a way to hold it up, which they will surely try to do.

Digital technologies and the Internet are still in their infancy; science fiction is ever more becoming science fact. For every job opportunity within the old established media outfits there’s a huge over subscription of eager young applicants, more than 50 to 1 in my last count a couple of years ago. So the odds are not favourable unless you have great skills coupled with great personal networks and as has been mentioned, the luck of Old Nick. The old adage that the entertainment and media industry favours young toffs is not without credence.

I’m not sure that your website provides enough to excite the sort of outfits you want to impress and as Dan says may be counterproductive; but what your website says to me is that you have energy, are enterprising, have a good essential knowledge of the processes and technologies and are ‘with it’ enough in terms of the Internet.

The biggest emerging opportunities in my opinion are to be found within the Internet itself, firstly as a means of networking for collaborators, and you will need to find some excellent ones, raising budgets through various forms of crowd funding, of which things like Kick Starter are very far from being definitive and secondly because of new types of free to view distribution models sponsored by all manner of groups, various forms of commercial advertising and fully front loaded production schemes.

The days of gargantuan budgets must surely be numbered too, due to them being increasingly unnecessary? Remember when corporate websites cost tens of millions and a decent ‘non linear’ edit system cost half a million and more? Those cost have not just been decimated, they've evaporated.

The real issue with the above is that the traditional hegemony and monopolies of opportunity are not what they were. We’ll be seeing a lot more high impact and financially viable Internet based projects. What remains unchanged however is that both quality and content are king!

11 years, 4 months ago - Deva Palmier

Is it worth giving your website an overhaul? Is it a Wordpress site? There are so many great new skins that can be bought for about £ 20. If you want to appeal to the film industry, why not make your site more filmic? At present it looks a bit clunky and home made and this would be so easy to fix. The style needs a bit more edge. Maybe worth looking up the sites of the people you are trying to impress? Or even the sites of your competition? Ben Wheatly's site does look homemade, but to his advantage. It shows off his style as a filmmaker really well... http://mrandmrswheatley.blogspot.co.uk/
Best wishes, Deva