ASK & DISCUSS INDEX

7 years, 4 months ago - John Lubran

Thanks for giving us another phylosophical debate opportunity Vasco. It opens up such huge spectrum of socio-economic-political possibilities that it's hard to know where to start or end. I understand that there's about 40,000 members here. You're possibly correct in assuming that a lot of them have not been able to sustain themselves working in film or TV. Since we've not yet taken a census of folks affairs it's impossible to make any kind of definitive analysis. What we do know is that the greater part of the membership appear to be too busy to interact with these bulletins; imagine the chaos if only one percent of them behaved as we do! We also know that of the regular contributers some find the time despite being busy with related projects.

Someone here once wrote that for some here, being rich toffs allowed them the luxury of trying. I imagine however that for many it's a struggle comensurate with the proverbial artists garret. Even living on unemployment benefits these days without knowing how to duck and dive a little is not sustainable enough to forge a film career, without some significant genius. So it's probably true that for most beginners juggling time and energy with a proverbial day job is required; either that or having a partner able to pay the bills.

I can also imagine that a disproportionate number of those who manage to find a way are not 'film grads', because they are more likely to have had to sustain themselves independently from an earlier age. The lessons if life greatly inform any undertaking.

Whatever may be the facts of the matter there's probably one main factor challenging many of us; there's a conciderable over subscription of aspirants to provided opportunities. It must follow that creating our own opportunities is the way forwards for those many. It's not always the most talented who get the cream but it's often the luckiest. A self made millionaire once told me "the harder I work the luckier I get"; I'd add to that it's not just hard work that increases luck by quoting that other proverb "working smarter gets you further than working harder". One takes ones pick.

I don't believe in those business guru's who sell pep talk lectures. The numbers of ways to success are nearly as many as there are people. The accomplishments of unearned wealth however are something else and ought not be relied upon for much of a source of advise on how to be successful.

7 years, 4 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

My "other line" is big events. They come along occasionally, but represent a solid chunk of work and cash when they do. To get started, though, I worked over a decade in engineering and IT to bootstrap my first film which made my first opportunities.

7 years, 3 months ago - Vasco de Sousa

Thank you both for your responses. I sometimes wonder if anyone else here works for a living, or if they all live in their mother's basement.

I recently read about a homeless silicon valley entrepreneur who didn't say that she didn't have money to hire people, but raised money, ran a successful business, and ended up being an investor herself.

My question is, if you're not creative enough to at least attempt to raise enough money to pay people, then how dare you call yourself an artist?

7 years, 3 months ago - Mark Renshaw

I work full time in business software development. Writing and making films is therefore a hobby for me with the hopes of making it more than that one day. The downside is I have very limited time to indulge in my hobby, but the upside is I can afford to make my own (short) films as well as attend film festivals and seminars.

7 years, 3 months ago - Michael Sandiford

I run my own small multimedia business making digital content for clients. It took me I'd say 10 years to get it profitable enough to make an OK living with. I'm not top tier or pulling in top tier money but I'm making enough. The only problem is when I get a nice contract in I end up having to put our own projects on the shelf, so much so that I've pretty much only worked on other peoples projects recently. I'm determined to get our projects of the ground in the few years and move our business into more of a narrative film and TV.

7 years, 3 months ago - Michael Sandiford

I make sure that all my professional work when I need other people I pay the going rates, but on personal creative projects I can't. Sometimes I trade services but unfortunately raising money is an incredibly hard thing to do on your own creative follies.

7 years, 3 months ago - John Lubran

I'm not sure I agree with Vaco's estimation that there's necessarily an artistic correlation between raising money or any other art form. The correlation between any form of art and money is entirely subjective. Raising money is a skill, whether or not it's an art must be subject to varying contexts and opinion.

I think that the issue is about business and about the business models required to monetise art or any other activity. In a capitalist system it's either that or charity.

7 years, 3 months ago - PHIL WEST

Looking at the paid (full time) jobs, especially on SP, just look at one from two days ago, they expect so much experience and expect proficiency in various forms of software from your years of learning and the pay is around £15 - £18k (depending on experience)?!
Also the hours seem to be longer than the normal 9-5, it's 9am-6pm, or 8am-5:30pm, some even say they want you to be flexible over weekends on top of your weekday work.

The pay has got so bad that some people are forced to work outside of the industry and dabble as a freelancer just to keep their hand in.

I'm a freelance editor and camera op. But I also run a printing/embroidery business.

7 years, 3 months ago - Mark Wiggins

The ones that get me are the ones that want you and all your kit, plus can you provide grip and lights as well, and they are not insured. I like doing low budget which is why I'm on Shooting People but I'm not in to financing other people's fantasies.

7 years, 3 months ago - John Lubran

Even within the so called mainstream operations, producing television for 'B List' broadcasters, employment practices are often Dickensian. But what also ought to be factored into this issue is that the budgets with which many independents are obliged to work are insufficient to provide decently for crews. It's too often a dog eat dog and the devil take the hindmost form of capitalism applied at the top of the food chain, long before its affect has trickled down to the abuse and impoverishment of crews.

Clearly there are too many people willing to put up with it. Too many people hoping to make sacrifices in the evidently forlorn hope that it will eventually launch a glittering career.

In such a context Vasco is touching on what is the emergence of alternative business models. Where needs must, breaking through the glass ceilings created by earlier moguls and worthies, is an increasingly viable option. Such has indeed been creative thinking. Copying those created templates though is not.

Much of these alternative options are empowered by the Internet and developing forms of Crowd Funding that extend beyond the provision of facilitating website businesses. Those platforms are just one facet of a multi faceted business model. It's going to be a longer evolution before this new business model works well enough for purely feature length fiction drama without empathy for real and actual human ethics and aspiration; ironically it may well initially work better for lower budget shorts that do.

The age of the fully front loaded and freely distributed six and seven figure budgeted dramatised feature documentary has arrived; IMHO.

7 years, 3 months ago - Adam Ethan Crow

Im lucky, I pay my bills by working in film. But there were many years where I didn't. during that time I worked in restaurants, hotels and general bar work -- then wrote at night.
The problem with our profession is that if we hit the big time we get to live the dream; even if we hit the mediocre time we're having a better life than somebody working a bar, loading vans -- working at Subway.
Consequently it is not easy; and it shouldn't be.
If someone's unable to make a living wage then they have to ask themselves, do they go on -- or get a job that pays well and give up on their dream?

If this life was easy everybody would do it.

A

7 years, 3 months ago - John Lubran

Behind every story there's another story. It's that story that's often more interesting and informative than the one in front.

7 years, 3 months ago - Mark Wiggins

It is true that this life is hard. Every day I’m not working I am busy chasing work; it’s no good just waiting for the phone to ring. Even on the days I’m working I’m still keeping an eye on emails just in case something comes up. It never stops.

7 years, 3 months ago - Vasco de Sousa

Thanks for all your responses so far.

I see perhaps a handful of people who might make a living with film on this list.

What I also see is a lot of people who run short film festivals, or useless film courses, giving advice which roughly equates "take film courses, enter useless film festivals." Some of these people work at universities, or get government money, and give bad advice to people who would otherwise follow their instinct and become runners instead.

Most of these courses are held on evenings and weekends of course, because no professional filmmakers go to them, so it's held when the wannabe suits have time off. Waiters could go during the day, filmmakers don't want to talk about film after a rough day filming. So, almost all wannabes at these events.

Then, others take those courses, and end up starting others. Like a huge, useless MLM of film advice.

It boggles the mind that some people think that they made a short film on their day off, and somehow they are a professional. It's like building an ikea bookcase, that doesn't make you a carpenter. And helping a stranger build an ikea bookcase won't help you get a job as a real carpenter either, even if your bookcase wins the local bookcase festival.

7 years, 3 months ago - Mark Wiggins

Yes. I started as a runner; hated it. It was very much a means to an end for me.

7 years, 3 months ago - Glyn Carter

The elephant in the room through most of this discussion, is that there is negligible effective demand for short films, microbudget features, or other kinds of entry-level material: to make any sector of the film industry sustainable, money has to come from people who'll part with cash in exchange for the pleasure that film drama offers.

Because there's no demand, there's no marketplace. But it's also true that with no marketplace, it's hard to judge if there's potential demand. The internet is a marketplace, but no-one has yet fully tapped its power, whereby small producers can stream directly to individuals on a pay-per-view or cheap subscription basis.

Amazon, iTunes and others offer a small foothold for microbudget features... but the real growth area has to be short films and webseries. Billions of people with mobiles and tablets increasingly want bite-sized videos for coffee-break entertainment. And they want something more than YouTube clips.

Whoever can broker this will make a fortune. More importantly, smalltime film-makers can find an audience based on the quality and appeal of their content, not name actors and marketing power. Money will flow into the undernourished indie/short sector.

It's just around the corner.

7 years, 3 months ago - Mark Wiggins

It’s not just around the corner; it’s actually coming around the corner and appearing into view. There are YouTube channels now that host short films. Omeletto, Dust and Crypt TV to name but three. It does not matter that these are free to view; people do not make shorts to make money. They make them to build up a track record, gain experience and get noticed. And it works. I can think of numerous examples of people who started making no/low budget shorts who have gone on to become mainstream filmmakers. Yes, the vast majority will fall by the wayside but that is due to lack of talent and lack of luck; not because making shorts is an egotistical waste of time (as some people would have us believe.)

Where would we be if Christopher Nolan had listened to the naysayers and stopped making the low budget shorts he was making at the weekend? Some great movies would not have been made.

7 years, 3 months ago - John Lubran

Hmm; I'm sitting in my living room at home watching TV and engaging in various Internet based activities and conversations, such as this one. I'm also effectively making money as I sit here because I'm a multitasking creative producer; and because I've set up processes with which others can get on with deploying their own skills. I've given more than a strong hint here as to how my business works. What I'm constrained from doing is publishing the definitive and detailed template because to do so wouldn't be prudent, though it ought not take the brains of a rocket scientist to join enough of the dots to do something similar. One thing that does present as invaluable is ones coleagues and collaboraters; particularly when starting something with little or no money. Social grace combined with cracking good ideas is how many people make a living.

Amongst the 40,000 members here there's probably hundreds of different basic pathways to earning money but perhaps only a few to making money; there's a difference. Whereas operating a specific service as a freelance craft provider, even at the highest levels that might include director, can be described as a business, such depends on an altogether different type of enterprising entity to create those primary resources that make any viable production possible.

Where I've alluded to the empowerment of the Internet, and with regard to Glyn Carter's post above; I don't concider pay per view to be anything like a viable market for shorts, ever. Glyn's reference to You Tube is pertinent because they already provide a free to view platform of millions of 'shorts'. People are not going to pay to view shorts. Furthermore people are increasingly unwilling to pay for any kind of media at all. Netflix may never make a profit! The future is about monitising free distribution. Those who crack that conundrum will be both rich and powerful.

7 years, 3 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren

I started life in investment and finance fields. 15 years ago I was in investment banking and asset and fund management. But my life in film started many years earlier making super 8mm films just like the kids in JJ Abrams film Super 8.

But 18 months ago I closed my VFX house and moved everything in to property and now have a high seven figure portfolio that has kept me busy, and paid.

Film has now become my number two business and I do it for fun, to mentor and to give back by helping emerging talent with funding and guidance.

Woz