ASK & DISCUSS INDEX

10 years, 4 months ago - Dan Selakovich

Aleve, the above answers are good, so I'll just say this: if you're shooting on FILM 5 days is plenty to tell if the director blows his ratio. If you've got a 10:1 budgeted, and the director is consistently shooting a 15:1, even if he/she is on schedule, you'll run out of film really quickly. Most Production Managers I know will alert the producer by day 3 if the director is blowing the ratio. If he/she is still blowing it on day 5 after a warning, they won't last. That's just the way it is, because the last thing a producer wants is the Bond company coming it. If a producer triggers a bond, he will never be able to get a film bonded ever again. His career is over.

But let's say you're shooting digitally, so 15:1 doesn't cost like it would on film. THEN you have to expand your editing budget because the editor has 1/3 more footage just to look at, much less make decisions about.

Mostly, this sort of thing happens because the director doesn't plan properly. I'd say if you're doing a first feature, storyboard every scene. That way, you can better plan your ratios and the producer knows that, say, week two is going to have some heavy coverage days, so week one and week three are going to have less. But the people with the tight fist on the money aren't going to know that unless the director works with them on it. So often I see first timers treat the producer like the enemy. They are your best and only hope!

As a side note, Spielberg is famous for coming in on time and on budget. The studio will hire a PM to do a schedule and budget. Spielberg will do his own schedule and budget that is under what the studio figures to be the proper length of time for the shoot. (That's also really helpful when the shark doesn't work, or your location gets rained out).

10 years, 4 months ago - Alève Mine

Dan, thanks.

The point is taken, it makes sense and all, still I don't have the margin of resources required to make other films before making these. Nor would the timing for release of any of these bring more ROI later for the producer than if done asap.

It never rains here: this parade is taking place under water. I grew gills.

That's the kind I wrote, you see. At the film school another pupil said I got it all figured out. I did. Then what.

Thanks...

10 years, 4 months ago - Alève Mine

Dan, 5 days seems to be too quick a decision.

What if on the contrary the director shoots a lot faster than planned? Can he/she usually use the freed time to shoot longer on other scenes? Assuming logistics work in favour of that.

I'm asking because we shot Nat in about half the planned time. It wasn't quite the scripted version in the end, but that didn't make much of a difference in this case. It's a whole different story when you're not free. What saved time was mainly the absence of lighting and mic-ing. And a decision to stop shooting.

10 years, 4 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Hi Alève,

By all means steal scenes from further into the shoot - some shots will be a real plus if you can pull them forwards and avoid having to revisit a location. It's not easy, because if your AD has planned well, every minute is being used already. On time, on budget, and everyone will love you for it. Ahead of time, under budget, you've got resources unspent which might mean you can choose to do more pickups with maybe a better money shot as well.

Late, over budget, and alarm bells will ring and things get very sticky. If you're lucky you might lose some script pages to get you back on schedule (and if you can pick up the pace, you may get them back, even). If you're unlucky, game over. Five days is plenty of time on a 20 day shoot - people will be watching keenly from day 1, and if you're only slipping without recovery, 5 days is plenty of time to show that trend.

10 years, 4 months ago - Alève Mine

Dan, what do you mean by "fixing a film"?

10 years, 4 months ago - Alève Mine

There is copyright on scripts, though.

Btw I got a NDA from a production company who wanted ME to sign it in order for them to read my scripts. Wtf. Obviously I didn't.

10 years, 4 months ago - Alève Mine

Marlom, thanks.

I wish.

10 years, 4 months ago - Alève Mine

Dan, Paddy, thanks.

Pickups, definitely: the image never comes the way you saw it in your mind, and you can't know in which way it will until each take is done. The smallest difference can make shots ineditable, at least not properly. It's bugging. And will likely be included in all my initial shoot plans hereafter.

Money shots would it seems need to be nonoptional and planned well in advance. So maybe somehow leaving an option to make them "more-money" shots just in case it becomes possible last moment...

When you're a first timer, producers generally want to take your script and shut you out. So hell yeah, as long as they are looking for ways to do that, they are an enemy to a project. Albeit also its only hope. These are surprisingly not mutually exclusive positions. And so in a sense, for some projects, they are also their own worst enemy. But when work starts and the specific director's creative freedom is something the producer truly believes in (and/or the artistic relevance of the specific producer is something the director truly believes in), then it can be a strong collaboration. I guess.

If it is the producer who decides to call in the bond company and that ruins their career, why not not call in the bond company to start with? Any other solution, including just shooting random stuff below the planned budget and editing in a fun way, sounds like a better solution.

I assume that if a film is not bonded, then - unless it's for Spielberg which it is for most projects not - investors back off?

Do you know how much under the studio's assumption of schedule and budget Spielberg plans, or what's a good margin, to your experience?

10 years, 4 months ago - Alève Mine

So it seems the practice is that if you don't accept the 1$ option, your sale chances are nill. But what if they are optioning your script not because they are considering it but because they have another project that yours could interfere with? I've met a singer in NY signed (exclusively of course) by a major, whose album was never released.

10 years, 4 months ago - Alève Mine

Paddy, Dan, I guess in the end it depends how proactively the director and the producer put the schedule/ratios back on tracks.

Dan, was what you wanted as a career a writer's? If not, then you did the right thing. AND: why not revamp that script and direct it now? Rather than climb through them 100s, jump over'm.

I've equally been confronted with the nonamesnomoney issue, which is unfortunately also a nomoneynonames issue. I'm still working on it :)

I guess making one's own budget takes care of the budget trick problem. Or knowing which PMs are trustworthy and having a veto right regarding who the studio picks.

The feature scripts I currently have can't get made in the indie world then. Trying to make 30k versions of them, or spending the next years making other movies (which I may not do as well) of such budget wouldn't work - even if I manage not to get sucked into survival jobs instead, which is starting to happen as we speak. It wouldn't quite be representative of the initial projects in terms of style and quality, wouldn't speak for the ability to manage a much higher scale, which may take a different set of skills. And it would eat up years that are crucial for all involved parties to make the initially targeted films. It's an overall no, gotta jump over those 100s.

Hold it. Would one rather work for free for a beginner youth, or work for free for a very experienced... person? Where can one learn most? What do you mean with even if they want to?

UK. They told me that my projects need to go to the US because they don't have that kind of money in the UK. Just repeating what I've been told. France. My French is no advantage there.

10 years, 4 months ago - Dan Selakovich

Yes, Philip, thanks!

I can't argue with any of the Aleve. What I wanted was a writer/director career. I just happen to be really good at editing. I love it. I do. And frankly, anyone that makes a living working in the film industry has my respect. It's a hard row to hoe.

I'm turning that script into a novel as soon as I'm done with the one I'm writing. It had 3 budgets. The lowest being 7 million, so jumping the 100s wasn't really an option. Plus back then, studios would fund something like that, and the producers that could afford to pay for an option had deals with studios. Now options are $1. It's a big fat race to the bottom.

I can't ask people to work for free because I've been at this too damned long. I've been screwed, beat-up, ripped off. As you may have guessed from my posts, I'm of the mindset nowadays of doing things properly, and that takes money. In addition, all the people I know that would help out for little or nothing are established industry professionals. I simply can't ask people like that to work for free. The least I would pay them is union scale, and even that is difficult: they are worth more. Yes, I could hire a bunch of people I don't know that are trying to get a foot in the door, but free and low pay positions can cost a lot more than hiring experienced people in the first place. I know what you're saying. On a short I did, I had those big people, and a slew of fresh film school grads came out of the woodwork to work with them. That actually caused a lot of problems, plus I had to feed them all, and it slowed production down considerably for various reasons. I tend to work really fast, and don't go over a 10 hour day. Rarely a 12 hour. I've had a 14 hour day maybe twice. The reason I can do that is because of an experienced crew. And the crews like me because I don't work them into the ground. Days can get long with inexperienced people, and the footage isn't as good.

10 years, 4 months ago - Dan Selakovich

Aleve, it basically worked like this: after a first cut was finished, a producer would realize that he bought the wrong script, hired the wrong director, or usually both. Writers would be hired to write new scenes to fill the plot holes if it couldn't be fixed by editing, and I would go through the footage to see if we needed to do pick-ups (for example, a director didn't get a CU of that actor, and the scene REALLY needed that close up).

I would then direct the new scenes and pick ups, then re-edit the entire film. That was easily 90% of my career. Often a film could be fixed by just re-editing, but more often than not you would AT LEAST have to get pick-ups. The very first film I edited was also the first film I fixed, and it went on to make some decent money, so I got pigeon holed pretty early on as someone that could "save" a movie. Not really a career I would have chosen for myself. I prefer coming in at the beginning.

The other way I get called in is on films that have triggered their completion bond (a completion bond is a type of insurance for investors; it promises a film will be finished). A film can trigger a completion bond company to come in by going over budget or over schedule or both. All the key people are replaced, usually. The director, the editor, the PM, the 1st AD, the producers... or some combination of that. The last Completion Bond film I worked on, I convinced the bond company to keep the director and the editor. On that one, I just supervised post (the post budget was so fucked up, it was easy to get a handle on completing the film under budget). I didn't think that this great director should be punished because his producers were stupid: they told the CB company that their budget was lower than it actually was. I assume to save money (completion bonds are usually 4-6 percent of the budget).

All of these require a NDA in perpetuity. I do not get a screen credit. I can't put the films on a resume or list them on IMDB. I can't talk about them with a friend over coffee. I don't exist.

10 years, 4 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Oops, misread - why not NOT call in the bond? There are many production credits, the producer is beholden to investors (some of whom will also be getting the reports), so will still at least deliver the film they want on time and budget. The producer will walk away with a slightly less fancy production, but it'll be what they're contracted for, and they'll hold their heads high. The line producer downwards, however, will get a thorough kicking and likely end some careers.

10 years, 4 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Many investors (the smart ones) will only invest in a bonded film - at least they know the film will get made. No bond, no investment. To get a bond, you need to be bondable - that is have proved that you can do your job on time and budget. This is why a first time director doesn't get a $30M budget - they are not bondable. That's not to say they're not capable, it's too say they haven't proved they are yet, much the same way as you don't get to fly a 747 if you haven't logged your hours in a smaller plane first, or you probably start on a pushbike before getting a powerful motorbike.

Every day during production, a suite of reports are drawn up showing the financial and shot list positions. Problems are flagged, overruns are recorded, crew and cast attendance are observed, footage of film or the number of tapes or the amount of recorded minutes are logged per camera, reel numbers are logged, script page counts are checked off, upcoming events are anticipated. These reports go to the producers, backers and will be what invokes the bond if necessary. Nobody wants to invoke the bond - NOBODY. It's a bad thing. The bond company are quite happy to take the money and do nothing, is what they prefer. Producers would rather the film be made as planned and agreed. Directors and crew don't want to lose jobs or careers. Investors don't want the inconvenience or a substandard film. NOBODY is trying to stitch it to the director, the director is the person responsible for stitching it to themselves (and upsetting everyone else in the process).

Why not call on the bond company to produce the movie in the first place? A fine question. Probably because they're in many ways mechanics, not artists. Actually that's grossly unfair, but they are not beholden to the original vision that got the project green-lit. They will finish the film, they will try to get it from whatever state they inherit to being finished with as few compromises as they have to, but have no emotional attachment that an auteur director might have. If that means no longer shooting everything from 8 angles to get some effect, if it means going with the second take for a lousy actor, so be it. They'll do the best job they can with what's left, but are unlikely to contribute artistically to the project beyond plugging gaps.

10 years, 4 months ago - Alève Mine

Philip, thank you for hosting our spin-off conversation :)

10 years, 4 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

It's true, the Americans have got the money, although big projects like (oh what was the blue people 3D one called?) also have received investment through groups like Ingenious (who package up other investors money). The other place with cash is China, and they seem to be developing a very Western film taste, but breaking Hollywood will be easier than there!

10 years, 4 months ago - Franz von Habsburg FBKS MSc

PS back in the old days, whilst others were at lunch, I'd look around the set and shoot cutaways, and, if available, ask actors to move their eyes to create a fresh line for a cutaway. We called it "cut to the cat"!

10 years, 4 months ago - Dan Selakovich

"Dan, so basically if you'd direct a film, the producers would save 4-6 percent from the onset. "

HA! I wish! No, even with me, you'd still have to buy a Completion Bond.

And let me say this to everyone out there: triggering a completion bond is the last thing you want to do. A bond company promises a film will be finished. Period. They do not promise it will be good. So everything is geared to completing the film with the money at hand. It has nothing to do with quality.

Though those of us called in try to do our best with that, and many times what we do is an improvement because the bond company hires really good producers. If you don't have a good producer, you won't have a good film.

So remember, kids, don't blow your shooting schedule/ratio in the first week if you're making a bonded film! In the days of film, I saw directors fired in the first 5 days because they didn't understand a shooting ratio.

10 years, 4 months ago - Marlom Tander

In general you should never rely on a copied form to provide legal protection. You should write your own in plain english, or get a lawyer to do it properly.

But TBH an NDA is worthless unless you have the kind of money needed to prove the breach (anon dropbox to the media? good luck with that), and enforce it, and the motivation to do so.

An NDA that everyone knows is a bluff can be much less effective than a gentlemanly appeal to "you'll keep this confidential of course" if one of your team gets pissed off and decides to blog/media it. "NDA, ha, I'll show the jumped up ....".

10 years, 4 months ago - Dan Selakovich

I've got a drawer full NDAs that I've had to sign before fixing a film, but never ever have I been asked to sign one before reading something. This strikes me as completely paranoid and unprofessional. I have to know: what is your reasoning behind it?

10 years, 4 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Why would any writer let their script get optioned for 1$? Ever?

Probably for a sale - the script fee isn't a dollar, that's the option. Maybe the script is good for $50k on the first day of principal photography :)

10 years, 4 months ago - Nigel Rogers

As above I'd question the need for one. There is no copyright on ideas only on the execution. I recently saw an independent film called "Night bus" by Simon Baker and now there is a series on channel 4 called "the night bus" similar premise but a different execution, so similar I thought they'd serialised the film but it is a channel 4 obs doc.

10 years, 4 months ago - Philip Davidson

Thanks everyone for your opinions, but I still want an actual document.
It is a scenario, not a fixing, and the people I intend to have read it WILL read it, of that I have no doubts.

10 years, 4 months ago - Alève Mine

Franz thanks, so fixing refers to editing. Why would that take an NDA any more than a script?

10 years, 4 months ago - Alève Mine

Paddy

(sigh) I hardly can ride a bicycle, much less fly a plane. Would have been nice. But I can shoot on time and on budget, that's a budget of zero. So mathematically speaking I can manage budget infinitely well, like many of us here. ;)

Thanks, again useful planning insights there.

It was: "why not NOT call in the bond company to start with": if the producer can choose, why actively end their own career?

10 years, 4 months ago - Alève Mine

They'll prefer not to read then.

10 years, 4 months ago - Alève Mine

erratum: student. though we're all kids.

10 years, 4 months ago - Alève Mine

Philip, then I guess 1) formulate what you would want to see in the document; 2) do ask a specialized lawyer to make the document and include your points where reasonable.

Dan, so basically if you'd direct a film, the producers would save 4-6 percent from the onset.

10 years, 4 months ago - Dan Selakovich

Oh, Aleve, it requires a NDA agreement for a myriad of reasons. The main one being, in my eyes, taking a directing credit. That just isn't done. Nor would I WANT it. The director did the work, just not well. But he did do it. I don't want to take that away. On a side note, some really great careers were built on my work. That smarts a little. ;)

10 years, 1 month ago - Vasco de Sousa

"Three can keep a secret if two of them are dead." - Ben Franklin

I answered invitations to tender that had a non-disclosure agreement or two, unfortunately, I can't disclose anything else about the agreement(s). :) And then everyone working on the tender (from proofreaders to crew who subcontract) needs to understand the nature of the agreement and agree to it, which is a real pain.

There are ready-made agreements out there, and some of them look good. Most of the best aren't for the film industry, but for patent-making industries (however, these can be adapted.)

Here's one: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/955063 but I'm not sure what your needs are.

Just change the wording to fit your particular case. If you can afford an entertainment lawyer (or at least a contract lawyer), even better.

In general, there are a few good books on film contracts that you can look at.

10 years, 4 months ago - Alève Mine

Dan, I'd guess you're really good at more than one thing. Reminds me of what this great phographer who took my first promo pictures taught me (free reformulation here): you want to get the props for the shoot you have in your mind, not the shoot for the props you have in your hand. Not quite the indie approach.
Yes, it is.
Can jump the 100s now, surely.
Why would any writer let their script get optioned for 1$? Ever?
I understand.

Paddy, good to know (was it Les Avatardés?). Reg China, I wrote and sang in Chinese and other languages from that side of the globe for a while. Figured that would get me a record deal. I performed there, and was, independently from that, offered a deal there as planned. The experience led me to understand that another path would be better. Oliwoude, here I ...can't come.

10 years, 4 months ago - Marlom Tander

Project Management is about money.

If you shoot fast enough to get ahead of schedule, great. It doesn't mean you get more time elsewhere, it means that you get more time to deal with issues that take time unexpectedly. You've effectively built in contingency time to help you not spend the contingency money.

Any money you save is available for post, and if not spent there, for marketing/promotion. M&P can take anything you throw at it. If you have a few K in the bank and no idea what to do with it, you can always do Cannes in a nice hotel in Cannes instead of a cheap one 30mins away :-)

10 years, 4 months ago - Franz von Habsburg FBKS MSc

If ever you've done editing you'll understand "fixing"! Footage arrives badly shot, line crossed, no overlapping action, no cutaways etc etc SO it needs fixing to make it watchable. Any wannabe director should be forced at gunpoint to learn editing!!!

10 years, 4 months ago - Dan Selakovich

Aleve, all those things Paddy listed that go to the producer, also go to the bond company. The producer doesn't call the bond company in. The bond company calls the producer and says "what the fuck is going on? You're a week behind schedule." Or something like that.

Yes, there definitely are producers that want to shut a first time director out. But that's just to get a hold of the script, and long before shooting starts. In my experience, once a director is on board they really try to keep the train running down the track. They tend not to fuck with a director to simply try to get someone else in once shooting has started. That's a bit too dangerous. Of course there are bad producers, but there are also bad directors. On a side note, I contracted to be the director on a script of mine that was optioned. I wouldn't budge on me directing. In the end, it never got made (studio financing didn't want me). I now wish I wouldn't have been so intrenched in my will to direct. I'd probably have gotten a produced script out of that. A produced screenplay is better than nothing. That was 20 years ago, and look at me now! ;) In Hollywood, there are 100 people at every studio that can say "NO." There is only one or two that can say "yes." Can you imagine trying to climb through those 100 people? I was stupid and/or naive.

Bond companies are insurance companies, not production companies. They hire producers et al as freelancers. They aren't interested in producing, or taking over a film for that matter (it costs them to do that). As I said, a bond company coming in is extremely rare. They just want their percentage, and everything to go smoothly. And as Paddy points out, they just want the film finished. They could care less about the art of it.

A first time director can get a pretty big budget as long as it's not studio money, but the producer will have to have a long track record. Frankly, most of the time investors only care about stars. There are many that won't even bother reading the script. They just want to know who is in the picture. No names, no money. I'm not kidding. "I'll give you 20 million if you can get George Clooney." Period. That's it.

If a film is not bonded, then no worries. That means you got your cash from 30 rich dentists, and they didn't know enough to ask. But if you got gap funding from a bank, they'll want it bonded.

As for a studio budget compared to production company budgets, and that margin. That one is so fucked up. Here's what happens a lot: the studio hires a PM to do a budget. The studio thinks that is too much. So they hire another PM to do another budget. His numbers are the same as the first guy. And on they go until they find a PM who gives them a budget low enough. But guess what? His budget is bullshit, and the picture goes over budget. Happens all the time with heavy EFX films. One studio exec said "if you don't bankrupt the ex house, you're not doing your job." What a douche. But Spielberg doesn't have to worry about any of that. He has a string of hits that came in on time and on budget. They know he's not going to ask for 200 million to do a film about a guy trapped at the airport.

But listen, none of this matters with indie films. Studios no longer fund midrange films. They'll distribute them, but not fund them. Their reasoning is piracy. (I'm not say piracy is the factual reason, I'm saying they THINK they can't make the money back because of piracy, and act accordingly). So all you'll get from studios as far as funding goes are 200 million dollar tent-pole films. They feel they can get asses in theatre seats that way. And they're mostly right.

So I wouldn't worry so much about studio budgets, funding, bonded films, etc. We live in a different world where, in the hopes of making a profit, your budget needs to be under a million. Often way under.

If I were young, my first feature would be 30k. My second, 100k... then just keep going up on each picture. But I'm old, and just can't ask others to work for nothing. Even if they want to. BTW, I'm just talking the American industry here. I know next to nothing about the U.K. and French.

10 years, 4 months ago - Dan Selakovich

Aleve, if Christine Vachon wanted to option any script of mine for a dollar tomorrow, it's all hers. But in 1993? Not on your life. As Paddy says, it's an option, not a sale.

As far as jumping the 100s, no way. Studios don't fund midrange films any longer, so there are no 100s to jump. And private financing needs a name. With those two options, the industry hasn't changed. It really hasn't. Everyone talks a good game about the 'new paradigms' of distribution, but absolutely no one has broke even on those paradigms. Zero. And without DVD, profit is impossible. You simply can't make a 8 million dollar picture and hope to come out clean. I'm sorry, but you just can't. File sharing killed ancillary markets. The ONLY way to raise 6-15 million is to have at least 2 names. I would love to be proved wrong. And any feature really has to make triple its ticket sales to reach break even. Please find me a 10 million dollar American funded film that did 30 million at the box office in the last 2 years. Hell, the last 5, and I'll eat my hat. Know what Netflix pays for a year of streaming on a small indie feature? Around 1200 bucks. Yep, what you spent on craft service is what you'll get from Netflix, et al.

That's why I say you have to work your way up. Write a solid script that you can shoot with a 5 person crew and 30K. Use the profit from that to do something bigger, and so on. It's not impossible. "My Dinner with Andre" was two guys talking over dinner. The problem is, I'm not good enough to write two guys talking over dinner and make it interesting. I wish I could. Maybe someday.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, Aleve. I'm really not. I hope you get what you need. Everything I say is based on my personal experience. Others have had better luck. But I've stepped off that roller coaster, and am trying from a different angle. My life is full of amazing, talented, friends. Much more talented than myself who haven't gotten as far as I have (and a few who have gotten much farther). And it's a shame. This town is based totally on luck and the script you have in your hand at a given moment. If you are lucky enough to get that moment, don't blow it, because it won't come around again. I can promise you that. It's a small, small, town. But if you want to go the Hollywood route, here's the key: a high concept film that can cross promote. Something that can become a theme park ride, a stuffed toy, a "collector's cup" at MacDonald's... That's they way in to Hollywood. Spectacle!

10 years, 4 months ago - Charlie Lyne

OP's scenario must be fucking revelatory.