ASK & DISCUSS INDEX

10 years, 11 months ago - Franz von Habsburg FBKS MSc

@Alève Mine The site www.MargeryBooth.com doesn't contain a logline because it's always sent after initial discussion with a customised logline depending upon the recipient's interest, eg WWII, opera etc.

10 years, 11 months ago - Franz von Habsburg FBKS MSc

As far as I know InkTip is not public as only registered producers can search and respond.

10 years, 11 months ago - Franz von Habsburg FBKS MSc

But the best is selected periodically from the one Black List for which I pay $20 not $25 as WG members get a discount. That's less than £12 most months. It's all exposure, so I'm not unhappy.

11 years ago - Peter Spencer

May I join this? Two quick observations; why not write screenplays that are low-budget, get them filmed and work your way UP to this project when you are 'credible' as a writer, investors want to know they have a good shot at getting a return and if your film is 'from the writer of...' It carries more weight. I must say you are wrong to fight back the way you just did - the respondent said he thought it was better suited to TV and you immediately kicked back. This is a defensiveness is why I no longer read scripts from new writers who ask for 'honest' opinions and then, upon receiving them, immediately turn upon the person who made the comment. This business is ALL about relationships, people have to want to work with you, and I'm afraid when I read your response a red flag went up in my head. If you. Don't believe me, ask any of the professional readers on here, like LUCY HAY or HAYLEY MACKENZIE they will have countless stories about writers with only one screenplay telling them that 'they' are the ones that don't 'get it'.

10 years, 11 months ago - Ivo Marloh

@Kays Alatrakchi It says "many times on the Shooters 'Script Pitch' bulletin"...

10 years, 11 months ago - Ivo Marloh

@jon king

Hi again Jon,

Yes of course, it's much easier said than done. What I didn't mention because I didn't want to waffle on, is that these things happen very naturally if you attend festivals. Berlin and Cannes, as well as the Edinburgh and Galway Film festival are awesome networking opps. This is where you make contact, by getting all contact details (free for delegates) and then ask for meetings, or in fact meet randomly at the tons and tons of networking events or just having a drink in a bar. Never talk business when it's social, just mention what you do. If they like you, and if they're interested, they will ask you to send them stuff.

It's a people's biz. :-)

PS Sundance and Berlin are coming up in Jan/Feb.

10 years, 11 months ago - Claudette FLINT

@Alève Mine
Competitions. Or a pitch on SP. But no more pitch alive.

10 years, 11 months ago - Kays Alatrakchi

I think if you read his original post, it sounds like that's exactly what he's been doing.

10 years, 11 months ago - Andreas Kubat

Hi Jon,

Someone suggested it before but I'd also research production companies and producers who've done similar films to your script. Get in touch with them and try to get them to request your script (don't send it unsolicited). Having a website with all the details selling the project as best as possible would certainly help in this quest. I doubt that a lot of reputable producers read the SP Script Pitch Bulletin, especially people who can get a £1.5m film made. These producers have their own sources and connections with talent agents etc.

Alternatively you can send it to production companies which accept unsolicited scripts. Hayley (Script Angel) did a great blog post last year with a list of UK companies accepting unsolicited material (http://scriptangel.wordpress.com/2013/01/17/production-companies-uk-accepting-unsolicited-scripts).

Lastly, you should also consider using Script Boutique (www.scriptboutique.co.uk) which is a very similar service to InkTip but focused on the UK and Europe (full disclosure - I'm one of the co-founders). We've only launched earlier this year but we already have a great amount of vetted production companies, independent producers and talent agents registered.

Good luck!

10 years, 11 months ago - Kays Alatrakchi

I doubt I can add anything that hasn't already been said, but just because your screenplay is receiving praise doesn't necessarily mean that it's a wise investment. L.A. is chock full of great screenplays which will never get made due to their non-commercial nature. It's not enough to have a story that needs to be told (at least as far as you're concerned), it has to play within the economic reality and demographics of the 21st century.

When you reference Quadrophenia and That'll Be the Day, my first thought it that both of those films weren't exactly box office gold (now if you had mentioned Tommy I might feel differently). The point is that a well written screenplay isn't in itself a guaranteed sale. As a matter of fact, judging from the latest crop of studio features, it would appear that there are an awful lot of crappy screenplays which are getting green lit. The fact that you're getting praise on your work is an indication that you're on the right path, now you just need to find the right combination of compelling story and commercial appeal and you'll be set! Keep at it.

11 years ago - Lauris Beinerts

Hi Jon,

If it helps, when I saw your pitch in the Script Pitch bulletin e-mail, I skipped to the next entry after "QUADROPHENIA meets THAT’LL BE THE DAY" - I didn't know those films, so you lost me there.

Now, I looked them up before posting the comment, and both are from 70s, so I would definitely not start a pitch with a reference to very, very old films. In general, I don't think using this "X meets Y" is right, but I could see it working if somebody manages to hit on some films I truly love, but would not have expected to be used together (as in - they intrigue me). But then again - such a pitch pitch would appeal to me, but would be lost on 99% of others (Donnie Darko meets the Matrix, anyone?). So in general - I think it is a bad idea, especially with old films.

To sum it up - I think your logline can be improved, at least based on my own experience reading it.

P.S. Please, take all what I said with a pinch of salt, as I am not a producer looking for a film to option / produce, so I am not the target audience.

10 years, 11 months ago - Franz von Habsburg FBKS MSc

I've done a belt and braces so am on InkTip too plus IMDb but if any of you fancy a quick read then I'd love to receive your comments on my logline at www.MargeryBooth.com and tell me where I'm failing. Cheers - Franz

11 years ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Just a note - the 'whatever, so who's in it?' thing from financial people is often exactly like Dan mentions, that blatant, that frank. I know a financial producer of 40 films, some of which have been modest box office hits - I don't think he's read a single script. He asks his minimum wage assistant 'is it any good?', and that's as close as he comes. He knows his part of the process is to raise money, and the first question the sales agent asks is 'who've you got?' (followed by 'what's the budget?'). If there's a third question, it's 'is it any good?'!!

11 years ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

@jon king

Hi, I agree that the tracks are important for the film, just raising why they make the script a harder sell for some people. Not insurmountable, but it requires a significant financial commitment before someone can even say for sure that they commit.

Your job is to write the script, absolutely. So is selling it. A part of selling it is writing for an audience, and many of the SP audience likely just don't have the presence to get or manage that kind of budget. As a writer, you can write for the audience by constraining the costly bits (period, lots of locations, anything specific musically for instance). You may get more traction with a cheaper script.

I'd be slightly cautious saying a film is for everybody - themes can be universal but you don't have to appeal to everyone. '79 will have stronger resonances with some audiences than others, and that's fine. Realistic targeting shows you know your audience - and that's the audience who will pay to see your film over the other half dozen they could choose this week. The Marigold Hotel... really not a film aiming at everyone, but absolutely nailing the target audience it sought. The Railway Man was never meant to appeal to everyone, but hit it's target demographic splendidly. Those films have a lot of female appeal, incidentally - I guess cinema attendance has a more coupley nature at a certain age. If you catch the interest of a backer in the key demographic then it might fly - but I'd focus on that 50-ish male backer who may bring the emotional connection

10 years, 11 months ago - Peter Spencer

Franz, I'm glad you are happy, however there is no way to know if 'the best' is selected periodically, as, when you go on the list you are not guaranteed a read, if the best script has the worst logline then there is a very good chance it might not get read at all. Also, compare that to actual genuine calls for writers on inktip - 38 movies came about via Inktip last year. Most of these will be low budget or TV movies for sure, but we all have to start somewhere and you get paid and a credit is a credit, for example: this week there is a call for Single location thriller, maximum budget $5 million, and action thriller maximum budget $15 million as well as a slew of calls for writers of smaller budget films, and as those calls are for both WGA and non WGA writers we can tell pretty much what they have budgeted for the writer. I am certainly pleased that Tne Black List exists as any exposure is exposure, but I have seen numerous tweets from people submitting and I think that they think they are paying to go on the 'actual' Black List. Anyway we have drifted far from the original post here.

10 years, 11 months ago - Alève Mine

You can pay to get on the black list? Defeats its purpose. Look for the next black list.

Franz, having met you and looked at your project I don't know why it stalls: it seems to have everything together AND you seem to be a relevant business person. A mystery to me. I'd be happy to dissect any hypotheses, just give me a call. I don't like mysteries. We must be able to figure this out.

10 years, 11 months ago - Alève Mine

@Peter Spencer Thanks.

Your having had projects optioned here is good news for the rest of us. :)

And congrats, by the way, for the films made and for the many scripts!

10 years, 11 months ago - Alève Mine

@Claudette With that, what is your roadmap/strategy?

11 years ago - Alève Mine

can't reach that link it says server bot found

11 years ago - Alève Mine

server Not found :)

10 years, 11 months ago - Alève Mine

@Nadin Hadi Thanks!

11 years ago - Tumi Jon King

Apologies for not getting back to everyone sooner but I've been away overnight and only just returned...

Wow! I really wasn't expecting such a response, truly. Let me just say a huge sincere thanks to everyone for your invaluable feedback. It really is genuinely appreciated.

Marlom: Big thanks for your double post and I do apologise if, as Peter and Alève suggest, I came across overly defensive. It was not meant that way. I have taken on some of what you said but at the same time I have to be honest and say that there are still areas where it seems we are destined to disagree. Thank you anyway - your input and feedback are very much appreciated.

Paddy and Dan: Your input has been a real help, particularly in helping me understand areas I really have little knowledge of. Thanks for that, and for your time. Genuinely appreciated. Like I said, Paddy, if I get lucky I’ll definitely be in touch :)

A big thanks to everyone else for your feedback as well - Peter for the (no doubt deserved) slapped wrist and the link to Josh Olson's humorous and informative opinion piece; Alève for the understanding; Nadin for re-upping the link for Alève; Claudette and Lauris for your honesty; and D. James Newton for your valued feedback (if ever you think you might be interested in looking at the synopsis/script from the standpoint of a prospective director, by the way, I would be happy to mail you.)

Big big thanks to everyone, once again. Very much appreciated :)

11 years ago - Nadin Hadi

@Alève Mine This isn't a pile on Jon, I just know the article Peter's linked to http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2009/09/i_will_not_read.php

11 years ago - Dan Selakovich

Yikes! Well, Jon, you just got a taste of the real world. A very small taste. I've optioned 2 scripts in my life (back when option money was something you could actually live on). It doesn't matter how good your argument is against a critique, defending your work is pointless.

On one of my scripts, each studio the producer sent it to had a problem with one small bit. But it wasn't really a problem, as it was handled visually. I said to the producer "but it's handled right here, visually, in the description." She replied "Exactly. They skim the description at best, and only read the dialogue." So how do you defend against that? You don't. You change the dialogue and jump on the roller coaster again. This particular script went through 2 options and 18 months of bullshit. My mistakes were these: Having myself attached as director and not writing anything new while the producer was trying to secure funding from the studios. The first may not apply to you, but the 2nd certainly might.

Marlom may be right or completely wrong. Practice your reply: "Wow, I hadn't thought of it that way. You are absolutely right." IF he's wrong, it doesn't matter because there are people with money who think the same way as him. Here is what the money people think: get a name attached and I'll give you money. Right or wrong, they think that way. I've met money people that have never read the script they are funding. I shit you not. The people that care about story care about how cheaply they can get the picture done, which was Paddy's approach. So what's wrong with your pitch or your script? Nothing. Everything. It doesn't matter. Write another, and keep one of these things in mind: Keep it cheap. Or write something that is a big concept that a star would be interested in doing that appeals to 16 to 24 year olds. I'm not saying that's right, I'm saying that's just the way it is.

11 years ago - D. James Newton

I'm booked out on a project for the next 6-8months but I'll always read a new script if it finds its way to me.

11 years ago - Tumi Jon King

Thanks for this, Paddy. Really appreciate your interest and input.

And all I wanted to do was write a screenplay!

I guess I'll just have to keep pitching away in the hope that someone picks it up. If I take out the music tracks I feel it would take away an essential part of the mood, the nostalgia, the realism I tried to write into the story. But I do hear what you're saying, £1.5 million is lot of leaves in anyone's cheque book!

Anyway, if I get a bite I'll certainly let you know.

Thanks again :)

10 years, 11 months ago - Tumi Jon King

Hi Brendan,

Many thanks for your feedback. Very much appreciated.

In answer to your question, no I haven't had the script read by a doctor or reader, although it has been read with favourable responses by several producers and directors. So far as I know it's certainly 'ready' as a polished first draft.

I'm afraid the script isn't online anywhere (nor would I wish it to be available for just anyone to downlaod and/or read on a whim) so I'm unable to post a link to it. My pitch, on the other hand, is up on the Script Pitch bulletin (this week's I believe) but if you're unable to find it I would be happy to send you a PDF of both script and pitch if you're happy to provide an email address :)

One last point, as I've already said above, I really didn't mean to come across as defensive, but I do maintain I have the right to fight my corner. More than one opinion has been expressed on this thread and I find myself unable to agree with all of them. However, I have genuinely tried to take on board the different opinions proffered, all of which - even those I disagree with - I am truly grateful for. Many thanks once again for your feedback. It is genuinely appreciated.

10 years, 11 months ago - Tumi Jon King

Many thanks Ivo, your thoughts are appreciated. I have actually endeavoured to do what you suggest in parallel with pitching on Shooters but it's easier said than done to grab the attention of an established producer/production company. Nonetheless I do take your points on board. I guess I just need to try a little harder. Thanks again :)

11 years ago - Tumi Jon King

Thanks for that, Marlom. Your feedback is appreciated, although I have to disagree on several counts.

Firstly, I do not see the audience as predominantly '50+ guys wallowing in nostalgia', anymore than the movie Quadrophenia was watched by mainly 40+ guys wallowing in nostalgia for the Sixties mod movement, or indeed, That'll Be The Day was watched by mainly older guys wallowing in Fifties nostalgia. Social media and the internet in general has opened up musical genres and eras across generations, a fact that has given rise to a thriving 'neo-mod/neo-punk' movement today. For this reason I believe this movie would not only attract an enthusiastic young audience, but would appeal across generations.

I also disagree that it would suit TV more than film. You haven't read the script. FYI there is one lead character and three main supports - easily catered for in feature format.

And lastly, if I may say so, your memory is short. And inaccurate. 1979 was the height of the 'mod/punk' and 'mod revivalist' movement (The Jam, The Beat, The Specials, The Lambrettas, The Merton Parkas, The Chords, Purple Hearts, to name but a few, all having hits in that year). It was also the year that Quadrophenia was released.

I was 22 in 1979, the lead singer of a moderately successful mod/punk band called The Mode. As I remember it ... well, I clearly remember it very differently to you :)

11 years ago - Tumi Jon King

Hi Dan, many thanks for the response. I have just joined inktip and will indeed pitch the script there, too. Many thanks :)

10 years, 11 months ago - Tumi Jon King

Many thanks Andreas. Signed up to Script Boutique and posted my first script today :)

10 years, 11 months ago - Dan Selakovich

I can't imagine any top finance people come here looking for scripts. They have gate keepers to weed out the crap. Or even good scripts, come to that. A reader at Miramax tossed "Good Will Hunting" in the crap pile. It only made it to the decision makers through another route. So even eventual academy award winners can be tossed by one person on a bad day.

Not to discourage anyone from posting here. My theory of "as many eye-balls as possible" still holds true.

10 years, 11 months ago - Franz von Habsburg FBKS MSc

Does anyone have any experience/ evidence that SP is actually read by top film finance people? I have had readings from InkTip and have put my scripts up on The Black List too where you can get a crit ($50) I also get cast and crew and put them up on IMDb to wave an even larger flag in addition to creating a dedicated site like www.MargeryBooth.com but still to no avail despite TWO female protagonists who pass the Bechdel test! And in a year when WWI and WWII are getting max coverage! But we are in an industry where we go from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm...

11 years ago - D. James Newton

I may dare to suggest that you aren't actually 'going wrong' at all.

But this is a taste of the real world that is over-flowing with original creative ideas from which there is so much choice.

Having an idea - however compelling - is not enough today. It has to have something else.

Attach a director. Or a cast.

Shoot a short scene from the film as a trailer...put together a website with a mood board and music...

Get script editor notes from an establish editor - use their best comments when you send it out. Are you going to LSWF? It's a must for any UK based writer - pitch it to producers, directors there.

Directors and producers can pick and choose ideas really easily today, you need to find a way of making yours compelling. A no-brainer. A product that is ready to go...

11 years ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Hi Jon,

I'm one of the many who've liked the outline but responded with what I see as being the hurdles involved. Budget-wise I'd coarsely estimate £1.5M CASH hard spend - it's a period piece, lots of period vehicles and lots of period locations (and all the usual boring location costs). There are many specific music tracks in the script which means a lot of licensing deals to do even before starting filming which means negotiations and clearance agents (paid) even before it's possible to budget properly.

£1.5M cash is a heck of an ask for someone to find and will likely mean a far higher paper budget. That means 'names', that means Equity contracts, that means it's becoming a bigger deal.

I suspect that's why people like it, but can't find a way to get behind it when there's so many unknowns and no money already attached. My 2p :-)

10 years, 11 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

'Top Film Finance People' - ie Studio Execs - have dozens of scripts a week mailed to them. They are unlikely to come here seeking readymade projects from unknown creatives and crew. The solution is to get known, otherwise you're one voice in thousands.

From your website, it's a period piece and you'll need to sort out some decent VFX and money shots to 'do' WW2 and Hitler's accommodation, etc. It isn't a cheap script.

If you can prove your worth and production first on a cheaper film, it's easier for the execs to 'invest' a few hours into looking at your current project. For all the courses and flag-wavers out there encouraging new writers, very few ever succeed - it's a numbers thing and it's a luck thing.

11 years ago - Marlom Tander

I haven't read the script, I was going by what was written in the pitch.

Your question is "so where am I going wrong" and you indicated that you think that your problem is getting the script read, in spite of people loving the pitch.

My punk is dead comment - at 15 we didn't consider the Jam or Mod revival scene to have much to do with punk. But in 1979 the difference between 15 and 22 was a whole generation :-)

I'll also flag another issue that has occurred to me - while I remember 1979 as a colourful and exciting time of school, friends, long summer bike rides, great music, snooker, and gorgeous, if baffling and unobtainable girls - the media today seem to view it as a time of grime, grit and grey. Hence unsexy and a negative for funding. You need to tackle that in your pitch.

I asked about audience. You then point to a neo-mod/neo-punk audience. How big is that? So, to a producer, have you just said "this film will have a niche audience", which translates as, "to make money, this film needs to be bloody cheap". And, as Paddy pointed out, it's not a cheap film.

The FIX is to write the pitch in terms of the UNIVERSAL STORY that your film tells. Being able to claim UNIVERSAL allows producers to think "big audience".

Based on the pitch I suspect that it might be something like, "ambitious arrogant front man discovers that there is more to life than fame, in this universal story of callow youth maturing to manhood, set in the colourful, Vespa riding, sharp suited, be-parkered, world of late 1970's Mods". Or whatever.

Key issue is that the general audience goes for the story, and the neo-whatevers go AS WELL. Suddenly the keen producer is saying "we have these neos, who will all go for the music, and we have everyone else for the story, it's a banker".

Also, your pitch totally fails to mention that you know this world because it was your world. It should do. Any chart success? Or not, in the context of the story, "our three singles failed to trouble the charts, in spite of our epic touring" is a sales plus :-)

BUT if your real problem is that your script is being read, but not made, then, assuming that it's good, I think the issues are all about the economics, i.e. they are not convinced it will make money.

I'm going to come back to TV. TV loves Milieu and what a Milieu this is - the origin of so much music. I'm not sure that I'd try and write a several hour script, but I think I might try and talk to some TV people and see if they think it's worth working up a treatment.

Cheers

10 years, 11 months ago - Brendan Cleaves

Hey Jon,

Have you sent you script to any script doctors or script readers for review and feedback? Irrelevant of how good you pitch is, if the script is not finished spending time on a perfect pitch is time you could be spending rewriting you script. You only get one chance to get your work read by someone, make it count by having the best version of the script it can be.

I would find someone who can give you a scene by scene analysis, full report etc. I've had a few done for no more than £300.

Can I ask you what version the script you are on?

Would also be good if you posted you pitch, either I'm blind or I can see it in this post. Why don't you send us all a link to your script so we can give it a read.

Also, one major bit of advice would be to take everyones opinions in, see where they are coming from. Being defensive will get you and your script no where. Even If you don't agree figure out why that person said what they said.

I would also advise you to go to the London Screenwriters Festival. It's packed with information about writing, pitching, storytelling and info on what producers are looking for in a script.

Anyway, good luck.

11 years ago - Claudette FLINT

The people you are pitching to will never take the risk to say they don't like your idea. I stopped pitching because I was tired of being praised.

10 years, 11 months ago - Ivo Marloh

Hi Jon,

I think where you're going wrong is that you pitch it on a forum for screenwriters or budding directors and producers, InkTip and Black List ditto, again, they are public forums. Why would you want to go on a public forum? Why not go to the people who can greenlight something or at least put you in contact with someone who can? You can research companies that have done similar stuff to what you're trying to do, or producers/companies that you think might like something like this, then try and get their contact detail. Never send them anything unsolicited, it's a complete waste of everyone's time. Get in touch with them, tell them about yourself and your logline, and if they're interested, send them more.

11 years ago - Marlom Tander

As a film it has a serious commercial problem. Who do you see PAYING to go and see it? I would guess that the core audience would be 50+ guys wallowing in nostalgia for their (actually very normal) youth.

That demographic doesn't really go much to the cinema.

If you want to argue that it's a film for "everyone", your problem is that all marketing and promotion needs focus, and the "for everyone" is the hardest sale. Because it too often translates as "hmm, looks good. But that other one really hits the spot", ie. poor sales.

Also TBH there is so much going on , and so many characters that we really want to feel for, that I suspect it's much more suited to being several hours of TV than a movie. That way you could really get to grips with the times and the people.

Try pitching it to a Scandi TV channel with the lead a Danish immigrant to the UK and watch them clean up locally and on BBC 4 :-)

Seriously, I think it sounds much more interesting as TV.

I was 15 in 1979. As I remember it, punk was well dead by then, just a few sad Mohicans posing for pics :-)

11 years ago - Peter Spencer

This is exactly what it is like....http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2009/09/i_will_not_read.php

11 years ago - Dan Selakovich

Perhaps using the shotgun approach is what you need. Is SP the ONLY place you've pitched it?

Try a larger venue like

https://www.inktip.com

for example. You have to get scripts in front of as many eyeballs as possible.

10 years, 11 months ago - Tumi Jon King

Many thanks for your thoughts, Kays - very much appreciated. Maybe I should think again about the Quadrophenia and That'll Be The Day references, as you suggest (although neither film did that bad in the UK, with That'll Be The Day hailed as a 'box office success' on Wikipedia)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/That%27ll_Be_the_Day_%28film%29

That said, as Lauris also noted above, they are both dated, so maybe the reference is not helping my cause. In any event, 'Keep at it' I shall. Thanks again :)

10 years, 11 months ago - Andreas Kubat

I forgot to mention Script Boutique is free and allows writers to upload up to three of their best feature scripts and an unlimited amount of short scripts :)