ASK & DISCUSS INDEX

10 years, 4 months ago - Dan Selakovich

Thanks to Cath, et al, I'm back! Really nice to be missed, Paddy and John. I shall delay my suicide.

Just so Cath and the rest at shooting people know, I didn't really leave. I just had too many irons in too many fires. This is the best filmmaking co-op around, even if it is thousands of miles away. Plus, every organization needs a curmudgeon.

Thanks again for the kind words you guys!

Dan

10 years, 4 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren

I feel the love :)

10 years, 3 months ago - John Lubran

@Dan Selakovich

That's a very fair point Dan.I must take a look at those outfits you suggest. Would love to see what sort of discussions they are into.

10 years, 3 months ago - John Lubran

You and Jess deserve generous recognition; thank you for that effort; you've managed to pull together over 30,000 people and reached a 17th anniversary so you must have done something right.

The membership growth has certainly slowed which either means you've reached the natural fulfillment of potential numbers or that there's another element to this largely independent community that for some reason has yet to discover why they ought to also join up.

The relatively unsuccessful expansion into the USA might suggest either that we Brits are too ironic, too rude and/or too interested in the socio political context of making films. With a couple of notable exceptions the American wing of SP rarely has anything to say other than narrowly advertising some narrow objective. It's equally interesting how the New York folks are at least a little bit interested in this narrative whilst the West Coast crew seemed to have had virtually nothing to say at all to the point of fading away completely, because I'd suggest, they just didn't get it, didn't see why such a conversation was worth engaging with! I'm still considering the meaning of that phenomenon; I imagine it's about nuance, radicalism and attitude, ANY attitude! The upshot of all this seems to me that it's attitude that is the energy generator of SP. Creativity demands attitude, glitsy bling and prole fodder might make more money from the glitsy bling proletariat but it's attitude that makes spirit and it's spirit that all life ultimately depends depends on. So may we never be afraid of attitude, no matter how incorrect, because free thinking communities with attitude will always thrive in the real world.

10 years, 4 months ago - John Lubran

Wozy is still very much active and appreciated here. It would be nice to see Dan Selakovich back here though. Seems his 'subscription' ran out. His $30 clearly deemed to be more valuable than his hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars worth of input!

10 years, 4 months ago - Dan Selakovich

Every organization needs to survive. That takes people. And people need to get paid.

I wish monopolies were fading. Here in America, they are growing. In fact, that is silicon valley's business plan (I shit you not). You mentioned Youtube. It is owned my a pseudo-monopoly; Google. The gatekeepers run our lives, but ShootingPeople is not one of them.

10 years, 4 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Hmm, I've paid for shooting people since long before it had forums, back when it was a selection of mailing lists. And it's been more or less the same price for at least a decade. I don't begrudge £3-ish a month, indeed you'll see I post prolifically and am always keen to help others. Are you certain it was shooting people you remember as being a free forum?

10 years, 4 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Many thanks Cath :)

10 years, 3 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Still miss him? ;)

10 years, 4 months ago - Andrew Morgan

I can only speak from my own (limited) experience but from my perspective, the independent filmmaking scene has changed dramatically over the past few years - the advent of DSLR filmmaking and the subsequent glut of prosumer cameras combined with previously prohibitively expensive professional software being made available at little (or, in some cases no) cost has enabled many creatives (myself included) to attempt to bring their ideas to the screen.

When budgets are measured in hundreds of pounds or less (as the many of projects advertised on Shooting People now would seem to be) there's less and less reason for experienced pros to spend their time here (unless they enjoy paying to help newbies).

The gulf between professionals and enthusiastic amateurs has become so wide now (with a myriad of budgets and skillsets in-between) that it would seem impossible for SP to cover all bases. I'd suggest that they need to adapt to better serve the majority of their members - the question is, what that majority is? Pros or first-time filmmakers?

10 years, 4 months ago - cath le couteur

Hi - yes it was free in the early days.
When we started back in ’98, both Jess and I had FT jobs and ran SP out of our bedrooms at night for 3years. We were also grabbing favours from everywhere we could. You know… our servers were basically errr connected by stickytape for many years… and everyone worked for free. The network grew over those three years and it became too much for us to handle. We knew we had to do something if SP was going to work for filmmakers and not collapse. We initially put in for a grant from the Film Council in 2001 which was turned down. No suprises there really. So we went subscription. I’m glad we did now because it means SP is entirely independent and not beholden to any public organisation’s whims/changes. Anyone who downloads our company accounts will see we make a v.tiny profit each year, which goes straight back into the org. Which is not to say we don’t want to increase that! (because we could do so much more). But our focus will continue to be on raising sponsorship at events where we can. Keeping membership subscriptions low is a priority. Without it, we couldn't exist. But without the SP community, we wouldn't exist either and we owe it to all to keep it low.
Best
Cath

10 years, 3 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren

What a wonderful offer. Many thanks :)

10 years, 4 months ago - Andrew Morgan

Were I involved with SP I'd be seriously looking at incentives to get some of these pros to contribute original content to the site - articles, guides, industry observations etc.

10 years, 4 months ago - Andrew Morgan

Hmm... I've just let my sub expire - SP seems little more than a filmmaking forum and an expenses-only job board these days - it's been fun contributing to some of the discussions here but there's other places I can do that without paying a subscription.

10 years, 4 months ago - Film Maker

Disclaimer: I know nothing and have no track record (yet!).

I remember when SP was free - a big magnet that attracted zeitgeist stokers - immediate interaction, no paywall. All that freely given stuff from obviously talented, open and forward-thinkers made SP essential. Guess the opportunity to harvest it proved irresistible. The landscape changed to allow startups to have their stab at herding cats online.

I think the 'contract' between the SP org and the audience was: SP as a bridge between Shooters and the 'real' world of film.

I could be wrong (there's no fool like an old fool). It's not clear to me what SP is for any more and how it's reacting to the most significant changes in history, where the pace of change is accelerating and fragmenting what used to be a relatively straightforward industry.

To me many here have a clear-sighted view of these fundamentals - that's incredibly valuable and one of the reasons I read every word.

I am too green to properly understand (yet!) but it seems as if a barricade (money) has been subverted by an enabler (tech). It used to be impossible to make widely-seen films for peanuts. Now we can that's intrinsically liberating and disruptive and what I think SP should foster. SP for the 99%, mixing the have-nots and haves, paving the yellow-brick road etc etc

This has sort of happened before within the music industry - anyone remember Napster? All of a sudden billions of tracks were available for free and huge audiences could be reached by anyone with talent and savvy. The industry foundered, unable to handle the rapids, lost loads of purchase. Looked on helplessly at unforeseen developments. New players took command, capturing the audience with an offer easily monetised. Could the industry have steered the ship? Yes.

Production values seem to me to be constantly rising. We seem to want to get closer to breathtaking reality so as to more easily suspend disbelief. SP should surely help disassemble as many barriers as possible. It seems obvious for SP to curate what is out there, to be definitive - youtube is full of the fruits of the 'guerilla' approach. That is becoming mainstream.

The big players seemed from the beginning of film to scheme and plan so that risk was zeroised. So that only they could produce the goods. Keen to destroy the competition and pull up the drawbridge. There remains a protectionism that works against us. As much as possible should be open source.

The glow of the narrow formula applied by the monopolies is fading. The fuse of creativity will always ignite however lit, so maybe people are beginning to react by broadening what is film, so as to more easily compete with the power of capital. SP could more overtly help people realise the breadth and depth of possibilities for expression without access to vast resources. Not how to do things 'on the cheap' but how to do things well, whatever it takes. It can take so little.

For too long it seems to me that the 'holy grail' of high production values separated the industry into Hollywood versus the rest. What muddies the waters thank goodness is the brilliance of many who do superbly outside thw system or in spite of it. SP is not and should never be mainstream, should it? We are always going to be quicker off the mark than the giants who tower over us. We are surely here to help each other become well-known and trust each other to give back if we can.

Disclaimer: I know nothing and have no track record (yet!).

10 years, 4 months ago - Marlom Tander

One direction you could consider, and one where I can help, is to turn SP into a production tool.

A place where online workspaces can be set up for people to run the film projects. Basically it's comms and project management kit. Way better than the usual mess of emails and skypes. NOT a replacement for proper project management tools, but plenty of people can't afford to give a team all the same software, not to mention that online is platform independent.

But totally worth all team members being on SP :-)

I've been messing around with Drupal based systems for planning and project managing shooting projects. Ideal for small scale team based productions where comms is both vital and difficult (people spread around the place, busy doing paid stuff etc).

Would cover:-

Casting and Crewing - suggestions, shortlisting, feedback from meets and input from team members.

Locations, props, kit etc - possibles, details, costs, terms

Costumes - sourcing, sizing etc

Legals - acquiring requirements, contracts, releases.

Marketing/Promotion - possible to have both public facing and private areas. So Public might be the general overview of the project, but the detailed stuff is private.

Key feature is that it's group/team based and in effect a network of networks. As such the MORE people on the system, the better, and it would in effect make SP a platform for not simply casting and crewing but actually all the follow through.

Also - every SP member can bring assets to the system, so it also becomes a DB of locations, kit etc and guide prices "free, free if I'm hired, £X" so in effect it scales into a full ecosystem rather than a casting/talking shop.

Drop me a line of you want to know more, but you could have a live Beta in a few weeks if you like :-)

Cheers

10 years, 4 months ago - cath le couteur

John hi and hello all.

I think you’re absolutely right. And it is a real oversight that we have not have done this earlier.

I don’t think there is a single member who hasn’t gleaned vital, supportive, experienced and seriously sound information from Dan, Wozy, Paddy, also you John and Andrew. All of you guys have been so incredibly useful and by way of (small) thanks we are giving you each a membership that will now not expire until you choose.

I’ve read the comments and responses carefully and in many ways they reflect the challenges that we’ve been working on for the last 12 months or so. We have a new team now at SP, very energised, and very keen to meet members needs directly. But in what ways do we determine what those needs are, and what are the most critical given how much the landscape has changed (and continues to change). Which is a roundabout way of saying - how to prioritise member needs is a constant challenge for us

If there is one thing that Jess and I still firmly believe - and why we started SP in the first place - is that we want to help enable bold, distinctive films to be made independently and seen by wide audiences. Bringing a community together is one small way of helping to do that. But it’s the members ultimately who are making this happen: just last year the features from Orlando von Einsiedel, Lucy Walker, Carol Morley, Charlie Lyme, Duane Hopkins, Asif Kapadia have made amazing inroads.

For now, I want to take all your comments and talk over with the new team. I’d like to come back to you with some thoughts about how we can better integrate/publish the knowledge we have about member activity/makeup. I’d be keen to know too if you think this would be useful.

Without a doubt, the discussions that take place inside SP and your feedback are a hugely significant part of SP. Not just on an individual level, where individuals are helped, but on a much broader/bigger level too. Despite cheaper technologies, making a film remains very difficult and it is the support, feedback and generosity of others, that allows this to happen.

Best,
Cath

10 years, 4 months ago - John Lubran

Thanks Cath for your lovely response. Life membership! That is nice. Perhaps you'll be able to make an objective analysis of who those particularly proactive and generous members are who ought not be left out of this mutually beneficial largess. Not a bad investment for SP though for just a few hundred pounds .

10 years, 4 months ago - cath le couteur

Hi again. Yes it's very clear that everyone you've mentioned has made substantial contribututions. For sure we will look objectively at the quantity of you guys and can then easily apply to others.
Thanks again
Cath

10 years, 4 months ago - Andrew Morgan

That's a great idea Marlon - I was also thinking that a tiered free/paid membership might be useful for SP with certain forums and expenses-only jobs being available to free memberships and more functionality/content/paid jobs for paid-up members.

10 years, 4 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Funny you should mention Dan, John, I'd had a couple of offline emails with him back in the day, so I checked in about a week ago to see if he was OK. He is, hadn't got round to signing up again as he'd been busy, but is still about.

Were I the SP office staff, I'd be contacting him and a couple of other lapsed stalwarts and begging their return waiving the fee. Needless to say, the cost of one fee is worth staggeringly less than the value of real-world learning you can glean by paying attention!

10 years, 4 months ago - John Lubran

Any one on the SP staff checking in on this? Your views on this would be appreciated.

Cheers Paddy, I did exchange an email with Dan too and got the heads up, glad he's busy. It was particularly interesting to have an American perspective in these discussions because over on the New York list it's as dull as ditch water, but not quite as dim as it was on the West Coast effort that fell so far beneath the level of sentient consciousnesses that it became extinct. I imagine that it must have some profound significance, just can't quite perceive what it is!

The inertia that propelled SP from its inception may have reached its zenith; I suspect that the energy generated on these 'community' spots might be the main frisson keeping it alive and that the 'The unofficial free tutorial committee' is at the heart of it.

10 years, 3 months ago - Marlom Tander

Just to say ta to Sp for the nice email :-)

10 years, 4 months ago - Paulina Brahm

I, for one, miss Wozy.

10 years, 4 months ago - John Lubran

Yep, it was a free for a while in the beginning. I guess it was a 'loss leader' to get the numbers up. Standard business tactic. Seems to have worked ;))

10 years, 4 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren

The gulf between the 'professional' and the 'enthusiastic' are not as important as you may think. Of course a film can be shot on a Panaflex or an iPhone but as long as you have an interesting and engaging narrative, you have something that will interest an audience.

Of course filmmakers would all prefer, or mostly prefer, the former to the latter for quality, but budget doesn't and never has stopped story. (I could also talk about the other numerous necessities like lighting, art, makeup, grips, sound etc... that goes into producing the quality - just because you can aim a camera doesn't automatically mean that 'quality' comes out the other end).

We as filmmakers are tasked with bringing to the masses all the stories that we can possibly imagine, in infinitely imaginable ways. That doesn't necessarily mean a big budget. But what it does mean is a requirement of knowledge. The essential building blocks that a filmmaker needs start with a willingness and desire to learn. SP offers that to the 'enthusiastic' from the 'professional', if they so wish to part with said knowledge, and sometimes vice versa. We can all have a unique perspective/experience on something sometimes.

Over the years I have had the great opportunity to work with a large number of people and have gleaned a wealth of knowledge and experience that has come, more so than not :), from a willingness to pass on all that others have learned. So I am always willing to add my 2c worth to a conversation if I feel it adds something positive to the discussion/debate.

As far as SP goes, I do also feel somewhat along the lines of what John talked about initially. Not that I'm looking for anything - I may contribute but I'm a long way short on the effort and time front given by the likes of Paddy, John and Dan etc... But if there were to be such a thing as "The unofficial free tutorial committee", I would support you guys in any and all ways I could.

Good luck.

Wozy