ASK & DISCUSS INDEX

10 years, 7 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren

I wish you the best.

10 years, 7 months ago - Vasco de Sousa

Great point John. As I've told others, I've already set up a company. I guess what I'm really asking is, where (or maybe how) do you set up such excellent relationships with people who have the right set of interests?

10 years, 7 months ago - Vasco de Sousa

Wozy, I'm sorry to be harsh, but you're right about a lot of things. You or I have nothing to offer by waffling air to the vast majority of investors.

Even if we get the best scripts in the world, with no track record and no pre-existing team we'd have trouble attracting key talent, and as a result the production values will be so dire that no film festival will screen it.

I had what others thought was an awesome script in Dara Says. These are people who are honest with me, who tell me I don't have the practical skills it takes to be a builder, or that they wouldn't hire me for other jobs. But, a few of them out of fair pre-paid for DVDs, or offered to work on it for no pay (or for deferred pay.) Another guy wanted to direct it himself, but would have taken the rating from PG up to 15 (about the equivalent of "R.")

I learned a hell of a lot by editing this film, fixing the sound and colour was a nightmare. We did everything by the books, and got the best books on filmmaking available. (Except for things like lighting and small microphones, we had no money for lighting and very little for sound. A boom mic and one camera was our equipment set up.)

Though my friends say I improved production values enormously in post production, we still didn't do one important thing by the book. I wrote a script before getting a team together. I think that hurt the marketing plan.

Why was that wrong? Well, I would go into it if I thought someone was listening. I'm looking for an equal partner, someone who thinks that two heads work better than one. You are obviously not that person right now, but I wish you the best of success anyway. If I did something to anger you, I'm sorry.

10 years, 7 months ago - Vasco de Sousa

Thanks for your response Wozy w.

I agree completely that a great script is crucial to making a great film, and can help bring in key talent (if only you can get them to read it.)

Geography is another key thing I've considered.

And yes, everything is easier said than done.

10 years, 7 months ago - Vasco de Sousa

Money, script, contacts, those are all important, agreed.

What I would probably bring of those three is script, but I can't guarantee there aren't thousands of excellent undiscovered scripts out there to pick from. (Interestingly enough, the indie films that have approached me for funding have never shown me a script. They've claimed to have big names attached, brought forth business plans, but never a script.)

I think my greatest assets are work ethic, passion for storytelling and for the audience, a passion for the "artsy" but not pretentious films that smart kids can watch with their grandparents and an ever increasing set of knowledge. That, and the ability to make children laugh or even pay attention by telling them stories.

I could help brainstorm and work at the results of that brainstorm. If I disagreed with something, I could back it up with examples learned through experience or through research, so the other party knew why I thought a certain way. I can research, and do plenty of things that millions of other people can do. But I do them. So, people know that I'm not just being stubborn.

As for what I'm looking for, I'm looking for more knowledge. I know that experience without work ethic or interest in the business is nothing, it's like the guy who worked fifty years cleaning toilets and McDonalds yet doesn't know how it's run because he spends too much time being disgusted at the grease. So, my experience means nothing if I don't stress that all my experience is the result of the passion to tell stories and a passion for the people who hear them.

My contacts? I think could make an awesome film with a bunch of unknown recent film grads (or even long time unemployed older film grads) if we only had enough resources to concentrate our full efforts into production, and we all shared the same vision for the film and the same passion for filmmaking. The main resource needed is time, the second is energy. Unfortunately, a lot is spent on day jobs and other commitments.

The obvious simple solution is to get enough money together to hire a great team. However, that's easier said than done. And even with all the money in the world, if the core team doesn't share that vision, the film doesn't work.

If everyone is just in it for the money, or for the one script, a new team has to be assembled every time. So, I think the best time to find the key people is before anyone has money and connections, before anyone can be in it for something other than the audience and the entertainment placed before them. When all that we have to offer is ourselves.

I guess I should really scour my old list of contacts to see who is still interested in making movies, and what they've learnt since I last spoke to them.

10 years, 7 months ago - Vasco de Sousa

I agree. As far as "the business" is concerned, I know a lot of good films actually started development before a script was ready. Part of development, in some cases, involves commissioning a writer to put together a script. (Yes, a writer can be paid before writing a word. It worked for Wizard of Oz and still works on many films today.)

Of course, that's also how lousy films like Batman and Robin get made.

Shakespeare got a great team together first, Moliere joined a great team.

I want to put a team together because I don't want to send scripts out to people who will mutilate them and turn a man into a chimp or a chimp into a man (to borrow a term from Walter Murch.) I think it's important that everyone is on the same wavelength and wants to make the same film.

If they just like the dialogue or one character and want to repurpose it for an audience it wasn't intended for, then the final film will suffer. (See "In the Blink of an Eye" for a more detailed treatise on that which I happen to agree with.)

10 years, 7 months ago - John Lubran

It's probably more about finding appropriate and pertinent collaborators rather than setting up a company per se. Exploring and developing ideas, sharing resources and skills is usually much more important than setting up a company. Setting up a company usually comes after a project has been developed to the point of actually investing assets, money and other peoples resources. Most features are set up as companies in themselves. If one has the manifest prospect of having commissions in place for a series of projects, especially for things like corporate and commercial films, then that might be a good reason for setting up a company.

Without pre requisite of excellent relationships I doubt there's much good in setting up a company?

10 years, 7 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren

You have to think, "what can I offer a team of professionals?" A dream? If you have no films or IP or money, then you have nothing. And having nothing will only attract others with... nothing. No producer is going to invest in a dream with nothing else behind it. That in itself is a dream. I'm sorry to be harsh. But that's just the reality of it.

Of course you may well get a bunch of people who want to help you build your dream, but what will they bring to the table to help you build that dream? It'll end up being a bunch of people with a bunch of dreams, dreaming.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, get an IP or a bunch of IP that has real potential value. You've talked in another post about the lack of producers offering options. Well, why don't you advertise for scripts in the genre of your choice and offer an option if you have no money to pay a writer to write it or pay a writer for a spec. Then you'll have IP that can be leveraged.

I think there are a lot of people who have an unrealistic vision of how the industry actual works. Take the rose tinted specs off and talk to people who have actually been there and done what you want to do.

I have had the unique opportunity in the past to pick the brains of a couple hollywood producers and decision makers, and the one key thing they all said was the importance of building a team of 'experienced' and 'skilled' people. But that you have to offer something tangible in return in the first place in order to build that... Food for thought.

10 years, 7 months ago - Marlom Tander

Money?

A business has to have some kind of plan to make money, and a person whose job it is to get those deals done - be they corporates, or pitches to channels, or networking film finance people.

That's the person you want, and the good news is that they don't need to know anything about film, but be able to grasp, and cost, the resources and logistics so they can structure deals.

Who might they be? Estate Agents, Recruiters, Consultants, Accountants, Financial Advisers could all suit - people used to PROSPECTING, PRESENTING and CLOSING, and, very importantly, with flexible diaries so they can incorporate your projects without giving up their current income.

10 years, 7 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

'Starting a film business' makes me concerned that this isn't the right thing for you to be doing just now. Not working suggests you don't have access to large amounts of money, and even the most modest decent feature film, once you factor in locations, hires, cast and crew, accommodation, travel, studio, score, edit, legals, deliverables, insurances, etc is a six-figure job... Likely over half a million quid to get 'million dollar movie' quality. Without that money, is it with committing a grand or so a year to accounting costs for company formation and CT600 submission?! You'd be mad to try to do it as a partnership where you'll be personally liable for partners debts.

So, other related sectors - dramatic shorts, fun to make, impossible to sell/recoup, not a business. Corporates - there's money there, not a lot of creativity but can fund your life. But do you really need a business partner to knock out corporates? What will they add to the mix? The margins aren't often high enough to split the profit 50/50, so paying people to manage the edit etc makes more sense than being in business with them.

I see that you want to start a career in film though - so you either need experience, or enough money to pay for experience. Have you don't much running for films? Been an extra on any big productions? There's actually a lot of Hollywood films shooting segments in Wales and an agency like Casting Collective can get you on set and paid (extras are paid better than runners and 3AD's, bonus!). Get amidst the reality of making films, and you'll start making friends in the industry. Then, once you are ready to make your feature, you'll know a bunch of people, know how it all really works on the ground, etc.

If you're still keen to start a film business, start off with a business plan looking realistically at income, outgoings, etc. It may make sense to have a business partner that understands what running a business involves, then you both bring complimentary skills to the table - and saves bickering about creative nuances whilst bills stack up because they're not getting attention!

OK, this may be slightly harsh, I don't know you, I've nothing to go on, I may be way off the mark. However the first reality of running a business is that it must be commercially viable, so before even forming a company, maybe look at opportunities you can take as a sole trader to bring in money (being an extra, local fixer, doing corporates, etc) then you'll be in a stronger position to start a business doing film-related stuff with fat less risk of folding within your first year or two.

10 years, 7 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren

Here are my thoughts.

1) Move to or nearer London or any other bigger city that supports a much larger film community.
2) Get yourself some regular work so that you can support yourself whilst working on the next steps.
3) Find a script that blows your socks off and has all the right ingredients for a successful film.
4) Package it as a producer would.
5) Seek out an experienced producer, in the same genre as your script, and get them onboard to produce.
6) Go back to #3 and continue...

This all sounds easier than it actually is. Film is very hard in the UK, well anywhere, but in Wales it must be almost non-existent. Remember, you need to minimise any and all obstacles to making a film and being 500 miles from the people you want to work with you is just making it harder on yourself.

To me, what you are suggesting isn't as realistic as you would hope it would be. The key to any film is a great script. Start there and no with building a company. The company's all for nought if you can't find a great script. With the script you will find people who will want to be involved - crew, actors, producers, collaborators etc.

Anyway, good luck.

@wozyW
Bad Eden Entertainment

10 years, 7 months ago - Vasco de Sousa

Paddy, good point, I put too much and too little information at the same time. Too much "I want" or "I need" and too little of my experience and what I can offer.

I've been an extra, done other jobs on set, I've produced a feature film and worked for clients. I actually have a corporation (my third), and I was thinking of a co-op which is a similar kind of thing (except, well, co-ops involve a different level of involvement). Perhaps I'm guilty of British understatement by not making this clear. Or, perhaps I'm embarrassed that this experience hasn't gotten me where I want to be.

Yes, I hate paperwork too. We had three people on payroll to make our last film, and it was a nightmare (even with help from the producer.)

I've been doing too many jobs at once for too little reward because I've been making too many decisions with too little outside input.

What I'm really asking here is merely, where do you go to find business partners who are serious about film and willing to join a start up? Even though Ptara Ltd has been active for nearly two years as a corporation, and has made a feature film, and has run longer than that for my freelance work, I still consider myself part of a start up because, in the words of Norman McDonald "who am I, I never heard of myself?"

I've done enough to know this is what I want to do. Doing most of the work on my own though is driving me mad. What's also driving me mad is not having anyone to talk to in the business about film stuff, like gear and software and techniques.

It would be really nice to work with people who know stuff about film that I don't, so I don't feel like a teacher having to explain basic filmmaking principles. I know that there are people like that out there, I met some of them in second year and I even learn stuff online from time to time.

10 years, 7 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren

Dude... Chill.

I think that you have misunderstood me. A team is vital. You can't do this alone. But what I was saying is that to get a team interested, you need something to entice people who can also bring skills or money or experience along to the party. You need to say, hey, this is me and I bring this... money/script/contacts/etc...

Let me ask you the question: If I was to be interested in your Wales co-op thing/idea and was to bring a sizeable chunk of money to the table and several years working as a co-producer, what would you bring?

10 years, 7 months ago - Lee 'Wozy' Warren

There's two sides to being a writer. 1) The craft. 2) The business. You have to have both to make a career and the better you are at both, the bigger the career you'll have. Getting people, the right people, to read a script is a key skill in the business side. Like pitching. Like networking.

A company is only as good as it's products and with a production company, it's the scripts they are developing which form their products. Get great products first. Then build a fantastic team around your products. That's the second key to success.

10 years, 7 months ago - Paddy Robinson-Griffin

Tough one - you don't want to be explaining film from base principles, but then if you find someone more experienced, what's in it for them?! FWIW I certainly learn something new every single project ;-)

Co-op is an interesting proposition, but unless it's still structured hierarchically it can be an easy way to chase your individual tails and/or have uneven rewards for individual effort.

Tricky one. Location isn't going to make things easier. Maybe there's a couple of rich overseas students you can woo?? ;-)